Ayende @ Rahien

My name is Oren Eini
Founder of Hibernating Rhinos LTD and RavenDB.
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Microsoft, SubSonic and Open Source

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Rob Conery has just announced that he is going to work for Microsoft. That is interesting, but not really surprising or shocking. Microsoft does seems to hire a lot of the bloggers in the .Net space.

What is surprising is the role that he is expected to fill in Microsoft. He is going to work full time on SubSonic, an Open Source project.

Why is this surprising? Because to date, I haven't heard of any other cases where Microsoft have paid for developers to work full time on OSS that didn't came directly from Microsoft. This is a fairly common model in the OSS world, but this is the first time that Microsoft has made such a move.

Very welcome move from Microsoft, and congratulations to Rob.


Jonathan Leibiusky

So, is this an intent to replace NHibernate? I understand that this is not a ORM, am I wrong?

Ayende Rahien


SubSonic is an action pack, it include web tools, simple OR/M, etc.

I actually have very little experience with it, so I can't really tell.

I don't think that this is close to NH's in features.


I'm not sure of the specifics, or even if I am correct, but I think that both the IronPython and IronRuby guys were hired under similar circumstances.


I'm not sure of the specifics, or even if I am correct, but I think that both the IronPython and IronRuby guys were hired under similar circumstances.

Ayende Rahien


You are probably correct, come to think about it.

The difference, as far as I am concern, is that SubSonic has its own identity, quite apart from MS.

IronXyz doesn't really have an identity of their own, they are just languages.


Subsonic is a mixture of things. It has code gen and ORM. You can whip up a [not-really] MVC-ish website really quick. Lately, he's been working on a db:migrate feature for it, which will just rock. love to see something like that in castle.

Ayende Rahien


I think we did at some time, not sure about its status.


J. Philip


Marc André Cournoyer already built migrations for castle.

It is now at:


I think the competition for NHibernate is more the entity framework.

Subsonic though could make a wrapper of it and be more like what Castle ActiveRecord is to NHibernate.

Rob Conery

Thanks for the writeup Oren :). In terms of Migrations I'd love to share the code on it. It's not the easiest thing in the world to do but I think I have a neat way of making it happen. I haven't checked in the final bits but users of NHib can are absolutely welcome.

In terms of the ORM bits- there are so many players coming on, most notable is LinqToSql. To me it's a lot less about how you get the data and a lot more about what you're gonna do when you get off work that night :). We all win with tools that shave time.

Dave Newman

@Rob: I'm looking forward to your take on database migrations. I think most shops out (mine included) have a pretty half assed approach!

I'm basing mine off numbered SQL change scripts, and a nant script that updates the databases. It works for us, but is nowhere near polished and it would be awesome if there was a community shared solution.

Will it be usable by projects not using SubSonic?

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