Ayende @ Rahien

My name is Oren Eini
Founder of Hibernating Rhinos LTD and RavenDB.
You can reach me by phone or email:


+972 52-548-6969

, @ Q c

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Passonaite at Team System? Depending on which direction

time to read 1 min | 118 words

Roy is hiring Team System people, I was amused by the post title:

We're hiring Team System People - Are you passionate enough?

The answer it my case would be "Yes, to avoid it" :-)

And the reason would be that it absoutely not a zero friction tool.

As long as we are talking about Roy, he posted a poll about mocking frameworks for his upcoming book about unit testing. I am impressed by the amount of votes (and the comments) for Rhino Mocks, thanks.



What are the main "features" that make it high friction?

Ayende Rahien

Latency is a killer here, TFS has a always connected model, which means that it drives me crazy when I want to edit several files, it checks them out, one by one, s l o o o o w l y.

Then there is read-only bit - plays havoc with my build process.

I found the merge capabilities quite week, frankly.

Patching doesn't exists, so you are forced to do work around that with shelving, with you can't send in an email, etc.

No good offline support.

Cory Foy


It shouldn't be that slow. We were talking about it recently internally, and ran a test which checked out over 55k files from a server in Redmond to a machine in Raleigh in 14 minutes. Is your server local? When you say slow, how long, on average, are you seeing it take?

With the merge capabilities - remember you can always replace it with your own:


Although I completely agree with the offline support.

And what would you like to see around the patching story? Is there something specific that would make that part better?

(feel free to email me directly and I'll be happy to chat more - foyc at cornet design dot com)

Ayende Rahien


I am talking about openning the project and waiting an additional 30 seconds to a minute for it to become usable. Openning a document and trying to write, and having to wait an additional second for the browser to respond.

The worst case is when I try to do a refactoring like Rename Method, which can touch quite a few files, TFS turns this from a matter of milliseconds into a matter of seconds at best, sometime much more.

Your test was for bulk operation, what I am talking about is that TFS basically adds network latency into my usual work in Vs.

About Patching, I want this feature to exists. Shelving does something similar, but it requires a server connection and write permissions. I need this for repositories that I don't have access to and where I may not have the right permissions.

Cory Foy

Thanks for the followup via email. I've posted a response here:



How do you guys afford TFS for your organization. we rolled out because it costs us $100k for 10 developers and we can't afford this. not when there is free alternative.

Ayende Rahien

That seems like a much higher price than what I have heard.

Do you have MSDN Subscriptions?


Yeah... for 10 developers is a little more than 100k. that inclues TFS and 10 VS Team Suite. And we have an MSDN academic but it doesnt cover it. nor does the universal. it's crazy. i even chatted one on one with microsoft support and that's the price they gave me.

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