+972 52-548-6969
ALT.NET is a divisive thing
Note, this is a partial (and the final) response to Sam Gentile post about ALT.NET.
Now to the part that actually talks about ATL.NET:
ALT.NET is a divisive thing. No matter what they tell you, they are full of negative energy, they sneer at others that don't buy into their view and sneer at the "enterprisey" folks.
ALT.NET is divisive, of course. Like any idea, it divide people into those who agree and those who don't. The ALT.NET doesn't include a value statement about those who don't agree, I am feeling forced to point out. And I am not sure that I know how to sneer, as a matter of fact. Perhaps I need to start taking lessons.
I believe that I stated before that I believe in the option of respectfully disagreeing with someone. Me & Roy often end up there, so I know that this is possible.
Viewing ALT.NET as a movement about rejection is a mistake, it is about accepting more options, about keeping your mind open.
The underlying issue is that like all people, I am lazy, and as such, I would really like to be able to just use the off the shelf, standard stuff. Unfortunately, I have found that fairly often, that doesn't do what I want, and to make it do what I want would be more costly than doing it from scratch. As you can imagine, that came as a shock.
At first I dealt with it with denial, there is no way this can be, that is what everyone is using, no way that it has this problem, obviously I am missing something. I went and did my research, and discovered that indeed, everyone who tried to do what I wanted run into the same problem, and had to solve it using the same wahonie shaped solution. That was the reluctant compliance stage, a lot of people stay there.
Finally I accepted that this is indeed a problem, and I set out to find other means to achieve my goals. They were not standards when I started, but they certainly moving in that direction for a while now.
ALT.NET, in my view, is about accepting that there are better ways to do things, and you should go and find them if your current way is painful.
Don't miss the last part, it is important. I hope that I am practical, and good enough solution is just that. If the current way you are doing things is not painful, there is no reason to change anything. If it is painful, then accept the fact that there are other ways and find them.
Comments
The main problem with 'alt.net' is that there's no central, uniform definition what it means. For everyone involved it seems to mean something else.
So for people not involved, this is confusing, and it's human nature to look for a common thing all opinions about what alt.net is have in common. If I may, those things in common are:
1) don't use microsoft stuff, except .net
2) use resharper
3) use agile/XP
A list not usable.
So, instead, the question rises: WHY are there people grouping together under that moniker? Because the answer to that question is perhaps useful for the .NET community.
My try to answer it, based on the communication the more vocal people have put out: there was an urge to form a group of similar thinking people who want to differentiate themselves from the vast majority of people in the .NET community who create software in the 'MS way'.
That group of people named themselves alt.net.
So, if you will, a community which wants to differentiate itself from the general .NET community, because said community works differently than the 'general .net community', and therefore doesn't want to be seen as part of that community anymore.
It's natural, social behavior.
The two biggest mistakes they've made so far, IMHO, are:
1) the name. 'Alt' means alternative. It's not an alternative, and if it would of what is it an alternative? .NET? MS? Vs.net?...
2) their idea that what they say is of any importance. The .NET community is so incredibly big, the opinion of a small group is perhaps heard by the people who read the blogs of the ones involved, but that's about it. The vast majority of people look at what MS cooks up, read a magazine if you're lucky but that's about it. Most people don't read blogs and most people don't hate the way MS wants them to work. And even if they do, who says they will embrace the way the alt.net guys think and want to work?
Why would using a non-microsoft developed piece of code result in being divisive?
The only problem I see is that we have developers who are unaware of alternative solutions that are being educated.
And this has nothing to do with 'hate' - the fact you have that view tells me that perhaps the perception is in reverse.
Let's see: some of the smarter developers in the .net community have developed resuable OO code that provides solutions to common problems... and they are 'divisive' ?
I guess we all aren't using P&P's objectbuilder, we are 'hateful' - LOL
(Scott Guthrie presented at the alt.net, does that mean he is part of the divisive crowd?)
All I see is a set of developers with MVP in their title that are fearful that they might not be in control. Seems like a power issue?
Frans, sorry but, I tend to take what you say with a grain of salt since you have a product that you sell and I see you always attacking similiar products that are open source.
When you criticize alt.net, what I hear is 'we gotta get rid of this stuff, it's hurting my bottom line...'
"1) don't use microsoft stuff, except .net
2) use resharper
3) use agile/XP
A list not usable.
So, instead, the question rises: WHY are there people grouping together under that moniker? Because the answer to that question is perhaps useful for the .NET community."
2.resharper is a tool that helps with my productivity. It adds on to VS and provides for areas that VS is lacking, especially with templates and refactoring.
You make it sound like it's done out of spite. Whereas, it's done because IT WORKS!
Ayende just gave it the best "definition" you're ever going to get. It's about being open to alternatives, and looking for the better ways to build software inside and outside of the Microsoft platform, practices, and toolset. As you'll read in the latest set of blog posts, the majority of the ALT.NET conference went ga-ga over Microsoft's upcoming MVC framework. So it's certainly not an "anything but MS" mindset.
"1) don't use microsoft stuff, except .net"
I'm on the ground here at ALT.NET. I'm not getting that message.
Here is the general theme as I see it: Use the tool that best solves your problem. That tool doesn't always have to come from Microsoft. Some will.
For example, with the new MVC stuff that ScottGu showed yesterday, I think everybody was impressed. There were a few discussions on if it's a Monorail killer, that's for sure.
"1) don't use microsoft stuff, except .net"
I'm on the ground here at ALT.NET. I'm not getting that message.
@Tom
That's not what other people are saying.
http://testinfected.blogspot.com/2007/10/altnet-first-impressions.html
"Writing better software probably means using tools that weren't developed in Redmond"
I find it rather funny that anyone really objects to what Sam was saying, especially since (unlike Bellware) he names names and is perfectly clear about what and whom he is talking about.
Certainly, whenever you generalize, you miss the exceptions, and there are exceptions (Jean Paul being the most obvious one from the Code Better group, Ayende here, etc.), but for the most part, alt.NET people seem to be pompous insufferable jags who are too cool for the room.
Since I am also, I can say that.
More here:
http://www.blogcoward.com/archive/2007/10/07/382.aspx
At least for me, and I think for a lot of people, we've suffered through enough poorly designed apps that were 'architected' by some guy in a room 2,000 miles away with no real concept or bearing on reality and who, obviously, never had to maintain a single line of code in his life.
Sam will bristle at this maybe, but I'm not saying all architects are bad. But the vast majority of them I've run into were more 'pompus insufferable jags' than any of the supposed/so-called ALT.NET folks I've met (and yes, some of them ARE pompus,don't get me wrong).
But at least I can look at most of the ALT.NET folks' code, even the most pompus ones, and still make more heads or tails of it than the standard strongly-typed dataset 1.53x10^74 sprocs Redmond automatron 'Architects' out there.
I'm sick of maintaining crap like this and I'm angry at MSFT for having facilitated this disaster I have to keep looking at.
Now, I don't think MSFT is evil, I don't think everything they do is bad, I don't purposely avoid their tools.
But I no longer give anyone using the title 'Architect' a free pass. They must PROVE to me they know something before I accept anything they hoist on me. Likewise, MSFT must PROVE to me they know what they're doing on a given tool before I blindly accept and start using it.
To me, this is more pragmatic than 'alternative'.
One other problem: There are a few, vocal members of the ALT.NET crowd that somewhat hijack the conversation and direct it more towards ruby rather than .NET. I still haven't figured out what Ruby has to do in a discussion of alt DOT NET, other than to say 'Ruby does X, Y, and Z better and so we should learn from that' and other similar such concepts.
Remember, to people like jdn and Sam: the 'ALT.NET' crowd is still quite a diverse and somewhat conflicting crowd and so trying to peg the whole movement to, say, Scott Bellware, is not really fair. Bellware is a huge contributor and a huge motivator for the ALT.NET concept, but he is, by no means, its sole and complete representative.
DISCLAIMER: The views expressed by Bellware are not necessarily those of the entire ALT.NET community.
Consequently, when he rails on Windows Mobile blah blah blah, he isn't really talking about ALT.NET. I consider myself a supporter of ALT.NET. I have a T-Mobile Dash and have no problems with it. ActiveSync works just great on Vista x64 and OTA and I haven't had a single problem and have no intention of getting a Mac or an iPhone. Those are Bellware's personal preferences and he's entitled to them and shouldn't distract from his other opinions regarding the inner politics of Microsoft w/r/t this Tool or that Tool or the PAG and whatnot.
"Frans, sorry but, I tend to take what you say with a grain of salt since you have a product that you sell and I see you always attacking similiar products that are open source."
always attack? Where? I use a lot of open source code in my work, and have done so for years.
Ever looked at how much open source I've written in the past years? Compare it to your own pile of open source you've written, and we'll see who's more into Open Source here.
If Alt.net is something about Open Source, then the alt.net movement should hire a pr firm and get their mission statement in order. IF they think it's relevant to listen to them of course.
And ... just because I sell the stuff I work on for 10+ hours a day, does that make my opinion useless? Hmm... so you think whatever I say, it's just meant to drive sales? If you've ever really READ what I wrote in the past years, you'd know I really REALLY hate marketing-driven software engineering, sales departments and other overhead. But, Steve, ignore my opinion if it's useless to you. I just have a feeling you take my opinion with a grain of salt because it's not matching your opinion...
"When you criticize alt.net, what I hear is 'we gotta get rid of this stuff, it's hurting my bottom line...'"
If you think that's my motivation, you're too stupid to argue with. Let me explain it to you one more time, so your fellow whiners who think I'm just writing software for money will understand it for once:
I care about my profession. I'm very anal about software engineering as a profession. What I want is that communication towards potential fellow software engineers is clear and that they know what to read/do/learn etc.
I don't care what the message is what some group might cook up, as long as it's clear. ALT.NET isn't clear. It's unclear what it stands for. Therefore, a potential GOOD movement falls apart because it has 1001 definitions. This thus means that a potential GOOD message isn't heard by fellow software engineers who don't read blogs and don't visit conferences other than say Teched.
I know that not everyone shares my opinion about how to write software and that's perfectly fine by me, there's no silver bullet. What I DO care about is if someone DOES claim to have a silver bullet. Because that means that the message put out by that person is unclear and actually wrong, a facade, because it says there IS a silver bullet, while there isn't. Far more smarter people than you and me have already proven that.
So, still convinced I'm a high-payed consultant, telling lies to get your money, Steve? You can't insult me more than calling me a person who tells stories because it will 'hurt my bottom line'. I don't care about money, if I can pay my house and the bills, I'm good. What I want is good code, great code. Because that's software engineering.
The message put out by 'alt.net' fellows is blurred. What's the movement all about? Unclear. You may say: "it's very clear", but it's not, I'm on the outside, I read what's written about Alt.net and it's not a clear message.
"What's the movement all about?"
Oh boy...It's about stickin it to the man, man! It's about keepin on truckin, about being a rolling stone, avoiding the MOSS, man...
Oh, and you should definitely stop washing and let your hair grow. And do acid.
Don't be a square, man.
/Mats
LOL Mats :D
Dude, you know it's monday, right? ;)
I would have to say I think Alt.net and its associated parties are, by and large, a positive influence to .net development.
I large number of the contributors have been people that have helped me indirectly from not being a Mort*, and I thaks them. Guys like Ayende have popsted a whole lots of code snippets, Web casts and complete app's/Frameworks that make my code better and makes me critically think about why and how I do what I do.
I say "keep it up" and thanks for all the great work so far.
Rhys
"Dude, you know it's monday, right? ;)"
What, already?! Or...again?
Personally, I don't understand the confusion. Anyone who has spent time trying to make some MS tool work, instead of getting work done with the tool should immediately understand the concept of ALT.NET.
@Steve,
"Frans, sorry but, I tend to take what you say with a grain of salt since you have a product that you sell and I see you always attacking similiar products that are open source.
When you criticize alt.net, what I hear is 'we gotta get rid of this stuff, it's hurting my bottom line...'"
Huh? But if ALT.NET encourages going outside of strictly what MS offers, more seriously considering third party options, wouldn't Frans stand to GAIN from the ALT.NET movement?
Comment preview