http://ayende.comAyende @ RahienCopyright (C) Ayende Rahien 2004 - 2021 (c) 202660Passion for a pet project does not translate into passion for your paid work. Pet projects are what you want to do, work is what you are required to do. http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment173http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment173Tue, 27 Sep 2011 23:02:45 GMTI think I'm a little late to the party, but I read the original post and some of the responses and was a little surprised at how angry some people appear to be. It seems as though the good faith original post was perceived by some as segmenting the developer population into two camps: good/develops in spare time and bad/doesn't develop in spare time. That is, I read into some responses by those who evidently don't code in their spare time as either defensive or counter-offensive ("oh yeah, well, I do X instead of code and think you'd be a bad employer!") But the thing is, reading resumes and interviewing is necessarily a reductive activity. No one doing this has the time to get to know you personally and get to know whether working at the soup kitchen provides you with the respite and social skills you need to be a better programmer or not. Interviewing is about snap judgments. Sometimes you won't get the best candidate, but I would argue that heuristics like the one in the blog post are more about avoiding the worst candidate than finding the best one. And further, it seems to me like a good heuristic, given that it is pretty unlikely that the worst candidates would program in their spare time. It may be that the best candidate also doesn't, due to a busy social life or whatever else, but as a risk/reward proposition, it doesn't matter too much. As an applicant for a job or contract faced with that question and assuming that I didn't have pet projects (I do), I'd try to think of a way to answer the question in terms of what I did have in lieu of pet projects. I might say something like "Truthfully, I don't have a lot of times to write code on the side because I've found that I struggle in social situations and am doing X, Y, and Z in order to be a better rounded employee" or "Given that I have a wife and children and the attendant demands that accompany that, I tend to pour spare time into my work rather than personal projects since I'm no longer able to put in 60 hour weeks." Now, it may not work in this particular case, but those types or responses are more likely to get your foot back in the door. But even if they don't, why get worked up? I've certainly had interviews in the past where I didn't think the questions were informative ones, and I made a note of this and moved on. There's no "good enough" or "not good enough" in a mutual value transaction like a job interview -- only "good mutual fit or not." If someone asks you and judges you based on something that you don't find valid, the answer is "not good mutual fit". There are other fish in the sea on both sides.http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment172http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment172Mon, 26 Sep 2011 22:50:05 GMTYes! I have been saying exactly this for so many years! There are so many people in our field but so many of them lack passion. Every time I interview interns I am amazed at how few of them do any programming outside of class. At the University of Waterloo there is a C# course that I guess all CS students need to take in 1st year. So of course C# is listed on their résumé. This makes hiring tricky because ALL OF THEM have it listed on their résumé. How many of them do anything with it until they have to? About 1 in 500 I would estimate. Even those who put HTML or web development on their résumé don't do anything outside of class assignments. Nothing? Not even a page for your mosque or a school club or your DVD collection, or... no. I want to (and have) scream, "Why are you in this programme? You have no passion for it!" Sometimes, if the it's not a programming job and I just need someone smart and willing I'll just ask, "What are you passionate about?" Sometimes I get blank looks, sometimes they think it's a trick and make up something about being passionate about programming, but usually... nothing. "You must be passionate about something!? Music? Bollywood movies? Running? Anything!?" So why do I demand this? This is a very competitive business. There are many self-acclaimed programmers and many programmers with top grades and university degrees, but the hires that you want are the ones that can't wait to come to work and will enjoy their jobs for a lifetime. Someone above asked, "Why don't we ask the same of accountants?" WE CAN! The controller at my previous workplace is very passionate about accounting. She offers to do lunch-and-learns about taxes, volunteers in the community with her skills, is involved with the local CGA association in mentoring, and continually upgrades her skills. It is NOT fair to demand that staff work more than 40 hours, or whatever is the standard at the company, but if they want to because they love their work, great. REWARD THEM!http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment171http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment171Mon, 19 Sep 2011 13:29:32 GMTPeople getting all antsy at Ayende need to remember this: Job interviews are a two way street folks. If Ayende doesn't want you to work for him, you probably won't like working for him either. His job interviewing is to find a good fit for his organization. Working for Ayende isn't going to be popping popcorn at the movie theatre. Your standard entry level person who has only done the bare minimum to satisfy their educational requirements isn't qualified. Period. It shouldn't be a shock. If you want a job in the top 5% or 1% in your field, you need to show up as a top 1% candidate. If you've got nothing to prove your worth, how can you expect Ayende to spend his time talking to you? Another thing to realize in life is that it's ok to be in that bottom 95%. You've got spectacular company. Great folks. Funny. You're gonna write some awesome code in your career if you keep at it. (You'll probably write some shitty code too... hopefully you realize that and keep trending upwards. lol.) Is it a RavenDB? Probably not. But that's ok. People get so offended to not be in the top 1%. If that's not you, it's best to just accept and move on. It doesn't negate your opportunity to be a person of value. We've all got roles to fill. Be a user of RavenDB instead of a developer of it. Etc. Your passion may be to not be in the 1%... at least in software development. That's cool. Meanwhile, if it is software development, why aren't you eating and drinking and sleeping it? 1 hour a day. 1 hour. I have three kids. I have a wife. I'm involved with my community (outside development). etc etc etc. 1 hour. 1 hour is really not that much. Especially consider that you can spend 30 minutes of that running or eating lunch or whatever but seriously considering your problem. You come back. A lot can happen in 30 minutes when you're primed to act. 365 hours... 9 weeks of full-time coding. Some good things can happen in 9 weeks. Even 4 weeks! Cheers folks. m.http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment170http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment170Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:31:10 GMTSome managers will tel you: "You are doing it wrong. Let me give you some tips on how to conduct an interview". Interesting enough, the only question that Larry Page asked his former Marketing Director was: "Tell me something I don't know". Some software developers will tell you: "40 hours a week is more than enough". But, people who truly excel at what they do (think of Nikola Tesla, Joseph John Thomson, Max Planck, Paul Dirac, Albert Szent-Gyorgyi, Konstantin Novoselov, Giacconi, Gerd Binnig, etc, etc) will tell you: "The more you put into it, the more you get out of it." This shows that different people have different passions and motivations. Some people put more into software development because they are investing in getting more out of work (e.g. money or achievement). Others put more into living, because they want to get more out of life (e.g. health or a good experience). This not only applies to work, but also school, marriage, friendships, kids, community, etc. For me everything boils down to one simple interview question: "How much you've put into it?".http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment169http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment169Fri, 16 Sep 2011 11:58:53 GMTIt seems that most of the bitchy, snide negative comments are coming from self-admitted wage-slaves, and most of the positive observations arise from those who are ultimately responsible for the hiring of productive programmers. I know in which which basket I'd place my wager as to reliability of results! I can discern immediately from the lack of maturity of some of the petulant responses as to whom I would definitely NOT employ. I want those with an adult outlook, not those who have barely graduated from the kindergarten school of assumed privilege. For those who have bitterly complained about this article, why don't you try establishing your own company, engaging those programmers who share your inflated sense of unearned privilege, and see how that pans out? If you make it last more than (say) ten years, then I shall fulsomely apologise. Until then, you remind me of little more than whiny infants.http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment168http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment168Fri, 16 Sep 2011 10:10:10 GMTI'm not a fan of personal pet projects. I can understand that they are good to expand your knowledge and skills, but too often have I seen employees and co-workers spend their work time on pet projects. Either researching or coding something that should only be done after work. My pet projects tend to be work related. If I have free time at work, either because I'm in-between projects or doing admin support and everything is done I spend my work time on projects to improve my work and make it easier. Very often these projects grow to become actual company projects or something that can be sold to clients. At home I prefer to relax, but if I'm thinking about work or development (coding) it will be about my work pet projects. So if asked to provide code I won't be able to provide any. All my pet projects are now actual projects or specific to my work environment. http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment167http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment167Fri, 16 Sep 2011 09:27:56 GMT@Ayende: Anybody with the passion, skills, zest and OSS / pet projects you're looking for already have *everything* at their disposal to do independent consulting or open up their own software shop. Why would they want to work for someone else? Your expectation is unrealistic and I think you really need to give people a more feasible approach to prove themselves. Maybe have them write an algorithm or engine of some sorts as part of the vetting process...? You'll be able to gather a lot from their coding skills and passion if they pull off some awesome piece of code! BTW, I spent 3 full days working for an employer with nearly the same expectations as you have and it was the worst 3 days in my career. The reason why I'm saying this you might ask? Because what always have been a joy for me e.g. code at work *and* home (at my own pace) have now become a full-time job except I wouldn't get remuneration for the after-hours effort. Additionally, I was expected to maintain that high level of efficiency regardless of personal circumstances or other priorities. That particular employer (and you) basically expected its employees to shelf their lives until further notice... That is very unhealthy for both the employee and the employer!http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment166http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment166Fri, 16 Sep 2011 05:43:27 GMT@ steve You said: It was good to see Scott Hanselman respond to Ayende's follow up completely agreeing with him. As I mentioned before, now that the likes of Stackoverflow Jobs 2.0 are attaching Github directly to your resume, I think this is the way of the future, and I as a hiring manager for a software company can't wait for that to happen. I also don't buy the "I can't legally do pet projects" argument, but that's another issue entirely. :) -------------------------------------------- Sometimes I just don't know how to react to these types of assumptions. Some folks live to code.. this I can accept.. but it is NO measure of quality. I've met some folks that spend a lot of time coding that weren't so good, and some that have non programming hobbies that would blow your mind coding wise. I was both a principle architect and a group manager at Oracle for 11 years, Unisys before that, and now work for a smaller company as an architect. Your attitude may find you some good folks.. but don't discount work experience and a mind interested in more than technology. The biggest issue I've had with developers has not been tech related.. its domain related. Getting most developers interested in the user community that is using their software is the biggest single thing that helps quality and a passion for excellence. When you care about the poor souls that have to use what you write, you go the extra mile. Gimme 1 of those guys vs. 10 of the work at home types and I'll build great products. http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment165http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment165Fri, 16 Sep 2011 01:39:49 GMTI feel for the applicant. I really hope you put in the job description that you were looking for someone with passion. Otherwise, you're kind of a jerk.http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment164http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment164Fri, 16 Sep 2011 00:02:51 GMTI also do a pet project and it helped me to perform experiments on Design principles, Patterns and TDD. In office, as being a junior one, it is not possible for me to apply all of the good things in the code, but at home, time isn't the matter and I can learn and apply all of the best practices i get from the world class mentors like Bob Martin, Martin Fowler, Kent Beck etc persons. A passionate developer code more than he watches movie at home. It is my observation. :)http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment163http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment163Thu, 15 Sep 2011 17:19:30 GMTI think people who passionate in coding will find spare time to work on pet projects. Each of us might have a pet project but finding time to execute it, is the biggest challenge. In my experience working on personal projects 1. Give more freedom 2. Experiment different frameworks or different way of implementation 3. Learn new things that I may not get in official work. 4. It also helped me to implement stuffs I learnt in my personal projects into official projects And a lot more... I agreed with Ayende's intention. He is not just looking for developers, instead looking for developer who's passionate in coding.http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment162http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment162Thu, 15 Sep 2011 16:00:00 GMT@Sean Gough I was probably a bit more flippant that I should have been in some cases, but some of the responses here were flat out staggering. That, or amazing trolls (if that is the case, kudos to them for being just realistic enough to suck people in). It was good to see Scott Hanselman respond to Ayende's follow up completely agreeing with him. As I mentioned before, now that the likes of Stackoverflow Jobs 2.0 are attaching Github directly to your resume, I think this is the way of the future, and I as a hiring manager for a software company can't wait for that to happen. I also don't buy the "I can't legally do pet projects" argument, but that's another issue entirely. :)http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment161http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment161Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:53:06 GMT@crob - A quote directly from Ayende's post, emphasis mine: > In other words, they have their own pet projects, it can be a personal site, a project for a friend, or *just some code written to get familiar with some technology*. So a pet project can be a simple solution you used to just learn how a new technology works. That to me is what code representative of a desire to learn is. I have dozens of such projects on my home computer, and a few on github. Almost none of them actually 100% complete.http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment160http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment160Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:43:29 GMT Here is a link to a more decent interview: http://www.codeproject.com/KB/interviews/Interview-John-Simmons.aspx This can help Mr Ayende to stay in business by recruiting professional developers.http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment159http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment159Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:33:42 GMTIf you want to hire people, apart from those good hiring practices, I recommend you to: - Create a profile for the company in LinkedIn. People then would be able to follow your job posts in an asynchronous way, like in twitter. - Create a Careers section in your company homepage. Otherwise people satisfied with your products which may have an interest in working for you (those two circumstances smell like passion too) would think you're not hiring.http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment158http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment158Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:26:17 GMTI agree with this article EXCEPT that in some cases it could rule out perfectly good candidates. For example, I just came out of a job where I was not allowed to do pet projects. Any code I did on weekends that I would ever want to show anyone had to be cleared by management, and once quality assured it would need to be branded and absorbed into the company. I still wrote a lot, but all of it would still technically count as the companies work, not mine. Another example is that the job I had before that required such long hours that the 4 hours a night that I didn't have to be at my computer, I was eating and sleeping. I did eventually quit when I had had enough, but came out with nothing to show for it.http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment157http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment157Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:10:31 GMTI just wanted to say that @Steve, I could not agree more with your comments here. You saved me a lot of typing, so thanks. You also sound like someone who is+ great to work for/with so keep it up!http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment156http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment156Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:29:13 GMTPassion for development isn't just about having pet projects, nor having passion developing software for a living requires having it in your spare time. I've also made a few interviews out there, I always like to ask if the candidates have a passion for this world and are also interested in it outside of job time, but basing my selection criteria just on it seems totally unfair and even wrong, as I've known people that completely ignore software development in their spare time, their code is not the greatest at all, but they add a lot of value to the company. Also, I have a kid, have to take care for a lot of things in my daily life, have to travel by car more than 815 kms quite often, I have to dedicate to work more than 9 hours and a half (because of getting there), go to the gymn, etc, etc. Yet I'm able read up to more than 50 programming blog articles a lot of days, and I'm trying to constantly improve and learn new things, I even manage to have some small pet projects or make several experiments (although not big ones, and some of them are a mess because I want to just quickly prototype something with some visual results), I like learning new things, even if sometimes it is overwhelming, but sincerely, I'm not sure I want most people to have this sort of life.http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment155http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment155Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:16:57 GMT@agenda yeah and that's how I interpreted your article I was just pointing out to Harry the differencehttp://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment154http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment154Thu, 15 Sep 2011 05:10:32 GMTCrob, That is not a piece of code that I would like to see. a) It belongs to your employer, there is a high likelihood that I am not allowed (legally speaking) to look at it. b) It doesn't really test the sort of things that I am looking athttp://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment153http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment153Thu, 15 Sep 2011 02:23:12 GMTWe have recently been handed new contracts. These contracts include statements the give our current workplace potential ownership over anything we do during and as part of your employment period. This is becoming common place in Australia. Recently one staff members was chastised for posting a solution to an issue with a silverlight control on a forum. This was a tech solution, not a "business" solution in anyway so has no effect as far as competition is concerned. Anything done by us outside of work hours is generally "owned" by a family member or spouse to avoid direct conflict with contracts. We are essentially discouraged from achieving outside of the workplace. If we were to provide insight into a pet project, whether or not its competition to our workplace or not, we can be exposed to legal action.http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment152http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment152Thu, 15 Sep 2011 02:22:40 GMTThere could be another reason the person doesn't have any code to share. Perhaps they are passionate but have been sucked down a tube of no time for their projects for a long time. I spent two years in this situation for my last employer. Quite simply I didn't have time to keep up with learning new stuff, writing the code that was needed yesterday, and taking care of my family's emotional needs. Now some people are considering a project to be something showing that one wants to learn. Perhaps they are right, I took it to mean some project that you work on at a regular interval. Do I have passion? I think so. I think that is the reason I was willing to give my employer what I did for as long as I did. Eventually I decided I had to leave so that I could have more time. Time to actually devote to a pet project. Time to actually learn how to use the free MonoTouch license that I scored.http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment151http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment151Thu, 15 Sep 2011 00:47:46 GMT@crob, All good points, things are definitely getting better with Microsoft, but it's still not great. Try doing TDD with MSTest for a day and you'll see what I mean. :) I also agree that there are very good .NET devs out there as well, but they are a very small minority. When I do find one I make sure they are paid well, treated right and don't get burnt out because I can't afford to lose them. http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment150http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment150Wed, 14 Sep 2011 22:13:59 GMT@Harry Steinhilber I don't think you interpreted the article as I did. I interpreted it that he wants to see "pet projects". Projects you wrote at home on your own time, not work, not partially work/partially your time. I understood it to mean a project you wrote on your own. There is a difference here. I can show any employer "recent code that is representative of the candidate's desire to learn. Stuff that would give the general idea that they are trying new technologies, not just reading about them. " However at the moment, all this code would be from my current employer, not a pet project.http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment149http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment149Wed, 14 Sep 2011 21:36:11 GMT@steve And "you" is figurative.http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment148http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment148Wed, 14 Sep 2011 21:25:50 GMTStating that the only way to show passion is to do coding as a hobby on your personal time, specifically to the OS community, is asking one to divulge into their personal life, and not only divulging into their personal life, but demanding that their personal life contain it in order to be considered for hiring purposes. I f I am going to be paid six figures to work for someone, I'll whip something up to prove my worth if my experience doesn't fit the bill (not that I'll be shopping for a new job in the near or distant future). I've been tested before in an interview, not by using jargon, but being requested to create an application of simple functionality post-interview. That's brilliant, in my opinion. While I agree with the idea of needing to look under the hood before purchasing, the phrasing of "you have no passion if you're not devoting your life to OS on your spare time" is complete crap. The fact that other communities think that should be the norm is disturbing. To put into perspective, today I read that a man a few years older than I with a family in my business passed on (and I'm "relatively" young). This just drives home the fact that I'm not guaranteed another day on this earth, and I'll be damned if I let the business world drive what I do on my personal time. Maybe that's just me. If you all are happy with that attitude, good on you. If there are entire communities driven to devoting their entire lives and hobby time to developing software, noble of them, but don't come about here with your high and mighty, superior than thou attitude telling those of us that have family's and lives what we should or should not be doing with our spare time. I'd rather spend mine enjoying my family.http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment147http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment147Wed, 14 Sep 2011 21:21:46 GMT@Steve "It's the overall environment in the .NET ecosystems that is completely broken, and 99% of the blame goes to Redmond." I agree the environment is broken, but if some of the cool stuff below is any indication I think they may be on the right track, which will lead to better developers with open minds, but it does take time. * jQuery integration in VS 2010 (plus contribute heavily to jQuery with platform neutral code) * native MSSQL driver for PHP * FastCGI for IIS * Phalanger : PHP language compiler for .NET * Codeplex * ASP.NET MVC In the mean time I have to say this. There are diamonds in the rough, believe me, I have made my living off of being a great developer in environments where there are few and there are definitely others that do the same. It is your job to find the right developer for the position. I've learned through experience that biases towards one technology or another with never help you, likely will hinder you, and may end up making you look very foolish one day.http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment146http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment146Wed, 14 Sep 2011 21:16:25 GMTI seriously don't get a lot of the comments here. I work a full time job where I'm on call 6 months out of the year. I have a wife and three kids. I hang out with my friends and read *a lot*. Yet I still find a few hours a week here and there to work on some things I find interesting. And I dare anyone to say I'm a bad parent because of it. Ayende wasn't asking for a full blown MVC reimplementation. He was asking for some *recent* code that is representative of the candidate's desire to learn. Stuff that would give the general idea that they are *trying* new technologies, not just reading about them. And to those arguing against OSS, he didn't ask for that either. He asked for pet projects. That could be a single solution sitting on your hard drive that has never seen the light of day. http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment145http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment145Wed, 14 Sep 2011 21:14:11 GMTTerry "You publish an article to a professional mailing where corporate America is reading about how their personal life should be on trial when applying for a job, and what kind of response was expected, Steve?" Me? I didn't do anything. Ayende might have done, who knows, but that has nothing to do with me. But I do know that in other ecosystems, people either wouldn't care, or would support this idea. But with .NET, it's suddenly "personal life on trial"? Jesus, he's just saying that if you don't have code to show me, how am I supposed to judge if you are any good? There's a reason Github is so popular, and there's a reason why 100s of thousands of developers showcase their code there (including Ayende). Stackoverflow just added Jobs 2.0 which links your resume directly to your github account as well. In a few years, this will be second nature to .NET developers. This isn't an invasion of privacy, this isn't questioning how you want to spend your own time, this is simply saying "I am about to pay you six figures to work for me, can you show me some samples of the code you've worked on?" Maybe the failure rate for IT projects in "corporate America" wouldn't be so atrocious if they cared more about the quality of their developers. http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment144http://ayende.com/90113/if-you-don-t-have-pet-projects-i-don-t-think-i-want-you#comment144Wed, 14 Sep 2011 21:04:05 GMT