Ayende @ Rahien

Sam Martindale commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Thu, 14 Oct 2010 03:40:17 GMT

Something with deep zoom seems like it would be cool. Agree with @Adrian Cockburn that something like getpivot.com would be cool.

Pat commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Thu, 14 Oct 2010 00:07:51 GMT

>> CoverFlow type of UI doesn't give you enough details about the other items to be viable to data display. I thought that might be the case, but was inspired by the similarity between an mp3 collection and a document collection ( my first attempt was this - [http://imgur.com/HjKBD](http://imgur.com/HjKBD) - creating a windows explorer for raven, though the directories are a bit of an artificial construction. Your battle against grids is in some ways also a battle against familiarity. This being an admin app, that is both good and bad. Admin users will take the time to learn your interface, as long as you provide increase power to do things.

Demis Bellot commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Wed, 13 Oct 2010 07:24:30 GMT

@Eric >>First You can call it crap all you want, your blind acceptance that these new technologies work like magic is proof enough to me that you have absolutely no idea what your talking about. Again your comments contain all FUD and no substance. >>Secondly I was advocating native app support, not web support for mobile devices! So why would I possibly be interested in those solutions you mentioned? If you actually went to those links without shooting your mouth off again you would realize that you use PhoneGap to make native applications using web technology. >>Additionally yes I am saying it would be cheaper because I have done it, you don't change the code often, the code base is small, and its easy to maintain! So low cost! Ok bud, I'll bite, lets see the pudding, where are these magical cost-effective native apps in which you speak of?? >>Thirdly your blog doesn't even render correctly in Chrome so why the hell would someone listen to you who can't even get their own site to render properly on one of the three major browsers? Next time spend the time to make sure you actually practice what you preach, it does actually count towards credibility! Wow more crap, Up to your old tricks again eh? I use chrome extensively which my blog renders fine in. Also If you had sleuth skills of a 10yo you would find the author of my blogs WordPress theme at the bottom, not I.

Ayende Rahien commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Wed, 13 Oct 2010 06:16:19 GMT

Pat, Nice look. Unfortunately, this won't really work. CoverFlow type of UI doesn't give you enough details about the other items to be viable to data display.

Jakub Borys commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Wed, 13 Oct 2010 04:15:49 GMT

Following on Ajai's bookshelf concept Home screen with documents: [http://i.imgur.com/eqszk.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/eqszk.jpg) When users document folder selected -> all indexes, query input boxes and search results combined to one view: [http://i.imgur.com/FBJwO.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/FBJwO.jpg) (SL is a bad idea, good for intranet projects only) Jakub

kamran commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Wed, 13 Oct 2010 01:42:05 GMT

I am seeing more companies adopt Silverlight for LOB apps for the same reason. Another benefit for companies that don't have graphic designers is that you don't need any graphic design skills to develop a really nice looking app in SL. Its just common sense to use SL for many businesses.

Pat commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Wed, 13 Oct 2010 01:36:05 GMT

This is an interesting problem, because as an admin tool you probably could get away with showing documents in a grid. The best i could think of was a coverflow style document browser ( [http://imgur.com/w9MIs](http://imgur.com/w9MIs)). This will put across the idea of discrete documents, though not sure how usable it would actually be.

Eric commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Wed, 13 Oct 2010 00:32:10 GMT

@Demis, Normally I try to be civil on here but you were so blatantly rude to me that I am just going to come out with my comments here: First You can call it crap all you want, your blind acceptance that these new technologies work like magic is proof enough to me that you have absolutely no idea what your talking about. I have used them extensively and they are no magic bullet and you ABSOLUTELY still have to do branching statements even if you use the frameworks. Secondly I was advocating native app support, not web support for mobile devices! So why would I possibly be interested in those solutions you mentioned? There are several reasons to choose native app support over web support for mobile platforms, its why people write apps in the first place! Additionally yes I am saying it would be cheaper because I have done it, you don't change the code often, the code base is small, and its easy to maintain! So low cost! Thirdly your blog doesn't even render correctly in Chrome so why the hell would someone listen to you who can't even get their own site to render properly on one of the three major browsers? Next time spend the time to make sure you actually practice what you preach, it does actually count towards credibility!

Ajai Shankar commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 23:44:59 GMT

This post is so confusing, you talk about UX and then this turns into discussion about Silverlight / Javascript HTML. What is the UX you are talking about - something like a bookshelf organized by document types. You let user pick an index and type out the query (which has intellisense by the way about the fields) Then you get a list of filtered documents, which you "flip" through like you said, and then zoom into say "linked"/related documents? And I agree with Jakub, Silverlight may not be the best way to go. I am just commenting for my free license by the way :)

Jakub Borys commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 23:27:57 GMT

I love the concept of sourcing the idea from the community for UI. This could turn out to be kick ass! Total innovation in web UI space. Could the technology used for it be decided after having actual design concept on hand?... Just a thought...

Demis Bellot commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 23:20:12 GMT

@Ayende Even though I'm generally pro-web, I actually think that building a RavenDB app is probably better done with Silvelight. It generally goes without saying - You're target audience will be .NET developers and most likely accessed within a controlled Intranet environment so you wont be penalized by Silverlight's market-share. It will also likely be an edit-heavy data-driven / binded app which Silverlight excels at. You'll also be able to re-use a significant amount of your client library .NET code and tests - so its pretty much a no-brainer.

Demis Bellot commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 23:09:58 GMT

@Eric >>CSS files that you are maintaining for a dozen or so devices, one for iPhone one for iPad, for WP7 for Blackberry, etc. and then you need to support each type of browser, if they are using Android with Opera v10.1 or whatever, 10.2 then you need to take that into account. If you use Silverlight you don't need to deal with ANY of that! Man that is a whole lot of crap to fit in one sentence. I hope you even know yourself that Silverlight only runs on one of the devices you've mentioned, which has less than <1% of the total mobile browser market share. And all this crap about Opera (which is actually a very good compliant browser) where Silverlight isn't even officially supported. I don't know how long its been since you've written anything for the web but I haven't had to do any branching statements for desktop browsers in years. Write compliant code and use a well-tested framework like jQuery, Closure Library, ExtJs, Dojo, whatever - they all have good support across browsers. >> if you want to support the iPhone you could develop a native iPhone app and IMO this is still more cost effective because the codebase for those apps do not change often, and they are extremely small and easy to maintain, while your web apps code base would change very often and would grow to be very large and get hard to maintain. Wow this crap just keeps on flowing - it's almost too hard to read. Are you actually seriously advocating to build native apps for each mobile platform because its somehow more cost effective?? Like with different programming languages and UI toolkits?? I'm seriously concerned how someone can think that. Do yourself a favour checkout PhoneGap / SenchaTouch or jQTouch and see how easy is to support multiple mobile platforms with a single codebase.

Jakub commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:57:06 GMT

@Eric If taking HTML/JS route (which I'm assuming is off the table) I would not tailor the app to all the devices since new mobile browsers including WP7 can browse full blown site successfully... The only browser specific anomalies would be handled by jQuery and if the browser of your choice is not capable of handling the UI then maybe it's time to upgrade your browser. At least you have an option of changing the browser... when SL is not available on you device then you're SOL...

Eric commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:46:22 GMT

@Ayende, I have gone through this route with clients before and the HTML/JS route sounds really great on paper but in reality its really not all that flexible. You have to have various branching statements in the code to detect what mobile device, use these images, or use this css, you will have up to 12 different CSS files that you are maintaining for a dozen or so devices, one for iPhone one for iPad, for WP7 for Blackberry, etc. and then you need to support each type of browser, if they are using Android with Opera v10.1 or whatever, 10.2 then you need to take that into account. If you use Silverlight you don't need to deal with ANY of that! Also you have a native WP7 application, if you want to support the iPhone you could develop a native iPhone app and IMO this is still more cost effective because the codebase for those apps do not change often, and they are extremely small and easy to maintain, while your web apps code base would change very often and would grow to be very large and get hard to maintain. Those are some compelling reasons IMO! You can agree with me or not but I have been there done that!

Jakub commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:42:34 GMT

So current UI will not be deprecated event in the instance of braking changes? I have used it once or twice through my phone already... not a great experience but doable...

Ayende Rahien commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:12:05 GMT

Yitzchok, That isn't really what I have in mind.

Ayende Rahien commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:10:46 GMT

Jakub, We already have a HTML/JS interface. You are more than welcome to spice it up properly. But since it is very easy to spend other people money, I think that I'll stick with the original plan.

Yitzchok commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:55:00 GMT

What about a UI that works a little like Paperless office software (aka document management software) or a windows explorer type of UI (since that is really a document system) This one looks interesting [http://www.lucion.com/filecenter-screens.html](http://www.lucion.com/filecenter-screens.html) [www.lucion.com/.../...nter-screen-scan-inplace.png](http://www.lucion.com/images/filecenter-screen-scan-inplace.png)

Jakub commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:47:33 GMT

I absolutely agree that cost of development and complexity of the project will be higher... the benefits of HTML/JS reach will outweigh these tenfold...

Ayende Rahien commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:41:59 GMT

Jakub, Because it is going to cost more. And because I find that it is easier to work with SL than JS.

Jakub commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:39:14 GMT

@Eric If we are planning on creating separate project for WP7 and leveraging existing code for Raven UI why not create it all on HTML/JS and have all devices covered up front without the need of maintaining separate codebasis.... just a thought....

Ayende Rahien commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:34:45 GMT

Jakub, I am talking about the admin interface. I am willing to have you open that one up directly, rather than via a browser. And I think that you missed the part where I said that it is possible in JS, just too expensive.

Eric commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:25:10 GMT

@lexx, You are talking out of your ass, Ayende is trying to make a living with his talents and to some people it's not good enough to work for someone else for the rest of their lives. Oh and btw, you work for someone else because, that "someone else" is doing exactly what Ayende is doing, making hard choices that are risky, and its called business! Everyone wants free, free, free, man you people are so f'ing greedy its just sickening! @Ayende, I think Silverlight is a solid choice for the rich experience and sheer ease of development, not to mention that as a Windows Phone 7 developer you could easily write a WP7 app to remotely manage a RavenDB for emergencies or monitor it from your phone if you need such a thing which I think would be pretty cool and could leverage much of your existing UI if you went with Silverlight for this... Just some thoughts!

Jakub commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:22:53 GMT

Could we please not do it in Silverlight? That would exclude quite popular devices/browsers: No Silverlight on Chrome for Mac, no Silverlight on iOS, no silverlight for Android... I can't believe in days of projects like HIGHLIGHT.JS ( [http://softwaremaniacs.org/soft/highlight/en/](http://softwaremaniacs.org/soft/highlight/en/) ) syntax highlighting would be that big of an issue...

Ayende Rahien commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 11:32:35 GMT

David, Yes, the actual document view is going to be showing you the JSON / JSON Like view.

Ayende Rahien commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 11:31:27 GMT

Lexx, 1) I disagree on your assessment of SL. And I think that I am certainly working on usability. As for listening to users... 2) I am pretty sure that reading this blog is voluntary.

JB commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 08:56:47 GMT

@lexx I want one of the free licenses... Also - as Ayende has noted before: this is /his/ blog. He doesn't have to write about what /you/ want him to write about. I don't see a problem with it - I've learned so much from so many of his blog posts (even ones explaining the non-free products that his company produces) and he's contributed so much of his time to real open source projects that we all benefit from that I think he's quite entitled to a little self promotion every now and then.

David commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 08:36:31 GMT

I like the notation used on the Raven Db site, where you show the JSON documents. it was simple to understand, by the looks of the monovue its similar to the treeview.

lexx commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:49:27 GMT

Ayende, U can see plenty of examples in the industry when something with a good UI failed and something with simple one became a number one app. What I want to say is : 1. Silverlight was born dead. And I really doubt that Raven DB would benefit if u go this way. What u need is to work on the usability and listen to users. 2. I think 3 years ago u would just start an open source project aiming to build this UI but now... Oh, man, I am afraid soon we will see only marketing posts in this blog. One more thing to emphasize - nobody wants your free licenses (for an open source project - are u kidding ???), good job costs real money and u know it yourself. )

Ishaan commented on How should the RavenDB UI look like? (There is a prize!)

Tue, 12 Oct 2010 00:49:21 GMT

Hi Ayende, Take a look at MongoVUE - [http://blog.mongovue.com](http://blog.mongovue.com). It renders documents in 3 separate views: a) A hierarchical tree view b) a table view (for 2D documents) c) text view Ishaan