http://ayende.comAyende @ RahienCopyright (C) Ayende Rahien 2004 - 2021 (c) 202660I think MS LightSwitch still need time to compete with Oracle Application Express. APEX far more superior... http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment51http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment51Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:03:21 GMTSomething very intrinsic, the core architecture is flawed. It has an extension model? I didn't notice http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment50http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment50Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:44:56 GMTthanks - yep, came in through a search result and didn't notice it nice set of posts, thanks for the updated POV - do you think the scalability issues with the dal are just some missing hints to the entity framework or something more intrinsic? Do you have an opinion on the extensibility model? http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment49http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment49Thu, 16 Sep 2010 09:30:41 GMTI guess you missed my series on it: [http://ayende.com/Blog/archive/2010/08/25.aspx](http://ayende.com/Blog/archive/2010/08/25.aspx)http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment48http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment48Wed, 15 Sep 2010 15:59:38 GMTAny update on opinion from Ayende (or anyeone else) since the product has been released for preview? http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment47http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment47Wed, 15 Sep 2010 15:55:06 GMTGravatar, With regard to spending too much time doing CRUD, perhaps you would feel differently after using NHibernate (with fluent), LINQ to NHibernate and a good Repository framework such as Sharp Architecture. The CRUD problem, like forms over data, is also a "solved" problem. For a really first-class experience, combine these with a dependency injection framework such as Castle Windsor or Structure Map. These are the sorts of tools that real professionals are using for serious work as compared to something like Light Switch which seems to be more toy than tool at this point. http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment46http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment46Tue, 14 Sep 2010 08:03:47 GMTLaurie, There ya go! You are not alone in the world, and there are MILLIONS, not thousands of people like you. Small companies trying to get off the ground. TOTAL budgets of thousands of dollars not millions. They use Word, Excel (more than ANYTHING ELSE!!!), Access and anything else they can use to do SOMETHING to tame the tiger. And yep, all of the "professional" developers, who are of course completely unable to help this ecosystem, complain bitterly about how the "secretary screwed things up". So I read all these comments and smile. All these people commenting in this thread have their jobs, and their work to do, and it is important work (really, it is!) but they just don't see, know or understand the "small business" ecosystem. And that ecosystem is HUGE. There are more people employed by small business in the US than is employed by the fortune 500. Furthermore, the "small business ecosystem" (as you point out) all too often exists inside of huge companies because of the arrogance of the IT departments where "write a spec and we'll try and fit it in our busy schedule" is all to often the norm. I specialize in that ecosystem. It is what I love to do. I help that small company bootstrap itself and grow. And I can't come in and present a "sticker shock" estimate because it won't get me anywhere. These people don't have "sticker shock" budgets. So I use the tools that let me do a good job quickly. Access is a fine tool. Hitting SQL Server it can be the FE for extremely large data sets. It can report better than most other tools, and get the reports done quickly. It can work bound or unbound, it has a programming language behind it. I can design tables and forms and entire small systems in hours or days. And yes I understand (and always hit) 3rd normal form and can go further when required. And I understand when NOT to go further. I am writing C# code (for my own business - for a specific client) to automate importation of 60 million record lists into SQL Server, normalize naming of the fields, export back out for third party processing, import back in and then using the data, all C# against SQL Server. I use SMO to get database lists, table lists, field lists, displayed in combos to let me make choices... I have been writing code since the 80s, I am no lightweight. But I use the tools that work for the job being done, and for the small business ecosystem, getting their core application up in days or weeks, some tools are better than others. If that is Access, so be it. I am taking a serious look at LightSwitch as a replacement for Access in those places. I can't say yet whether it will be the "Access replacement" but I can say that having the power of .Net available when I need it could make all the difference. So there ya go. Use what works, be professional, do a good job within the parameters that we work in, and do your best to ignore the "professional" developers who haven't a clue about the other 90% of the world. And oh, by the way, I DO get jobs replacing the secretary's crude attempt to get the job done. It happens all the time. But I DON'T come in with a "sticker shock" estimate. http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment45http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment45Sat, 11 Sep 2010 16:23:21 GMT@Laurie Exactly. LS implements best practices (they can even evolve) at system level, where every developer tries to repeat again and again (not always at best, experience matters) allowing to free hands and mind for real business model problems. Sure it is for some class of applications (scalability matters in huge webapps, but this is different world). Business persons may scratch only surface of model, starting with validation/navigation real developer is needed even in LS, no doubt. Those very experienced developers (but not so much of it) might retarget itself to extensions/components/providers/integration design at system level again. Its the same idea as separation of logic and UI design, where themes/shells fall. Similary as CLR/JIT compiler might do smarter decisions than AOT using real data, runtime model execution might even smarter decide at higher level HOW to do WHAT is declared. Runtime models execution is the future for multicore world. Things like LightSwitch (not itself) will start really new perspective for all of us, IMHO. http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment44http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment44Mon, 06 Sep 2010 23:25:48 GMTI am not a programmer and I am not a secretary. I work at a university but not in the central IT department. I help support one of the largest departments on campus as part of a small (3 person) IT team to take care of the network in the building, several labs, the large departmental website and tech solutions for faculty and staff. There is an enterprise system for campus but departmental folks are not allowed to touch it (which in general is probably a good thing). When I started working there in 1999 everything departmentally was done in a spreadsheet or in Word. EVERYTHING. What have we done then? We HAD to create Access databases. We used Infopath. We used whatever we could. I convinced them to get SQL 2005 when it came out. We've built small apps on top of data. The amount of time that can be spent per week on application development work? About 10 hours. Not per person. Total. Our apps are as well designed as we can make them. The Access databases cannot go away entirely because our 3 person team cannot make every new report the user wants. But they sit on top of a SQL database and they do the job they need to do. I have a beautiful master data plan designed that I sigh over once in a while. We are slowly moving towards that goal. I incorporate as many good design features as I can. I read blogs of experts to make sure I am aware of shortcomings of different technologies. Today I am disappointed in my reading. I HAVE played with Lightswitch. It has promise in my world. As with some of the Access databases I inherited, some poorly designed apps WILL get developed. But even with the poorly designed apps, at least somebody attempted to be more efficient in these times of layoffs, vacancy management and job combining so they can work only an hour extra off the clock instead of two or three. So what would YOU do with only 10 hours of development time per week? Maybe look for a solution that is built on MVVM and entity framework, has easy deployment (web or desktop), plays nice with Sharepoint and is already part of the Microsoft technology stack. Yes, Lightswitch will likely work in my situation. The point is, there are probably thousands of people in my situation. From my short time playing with Lightswitch, I can see people will have to do SOME coding. The secretary will not be using this tool. Most people on this blog will not be using this tool. But I and the thousands out there like me will so the secretary doesn't have to work so hard. http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment43http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment43Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:56:00 GMTFor me LightSwitch looks like a future Access replacement. And from that perspective it seems to be a step forward. http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment42http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment42Sat, 21 Aug 2010 08:49:57 GMTMarkus, I would have actually believed you if you bothered to leave any sort of identifying information. http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment41http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment41Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:02:23 GMTDude, it is pretty obvious that you have not had access to the product, as just about everything you say here is factually wrong. I recommend you check out the product when it becomes available in a few days... http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment40http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment40Thu, 19 Aug 2010 03:37:32 GMTMight work for non trivial applications but the moment you hit something even slightly complex you will have to revert back to code. Why even bother as most useful real life applications are really non trivial. Couple this with the fact that a secretary probably has no idea about designing for maintainability, testability, interpreting requirements and validating requirements and i think you are creating a whole new set of problems. It might have a use for individuals who want 'Macro' like functionality (a bit like automator workflows on mac) but i'm not sure of its other uses. http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment39http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment39Sun, 15 Aug 2010 06:53:58 GMT@Tyler said: "There are multiple factual inaccuracies and prejudicial arguments that are wholly without foundation here..." " The rest of the assumptions and ill informed criticisms here..." Please name 1 or more and continue the discussion. Accusations without any basis are not useful. http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment38http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment38Tue, 10 Aug 2010 07:21:55 GMT@Colin Jack, Ruby programmers in general and RoR programmers in particular do not need IronRuby (because they do not need Windows in the first place). .NET programmers do not need IronRuby except maybe as a second class scripting language. Unless IronRuby gets some community it is dead. http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment37http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment37Mon, 09 Aug 2010 22:42:21 GMTTried leaving comment on Jason Zanders blog bugbhe seems to ge only letting through positive comments. My worry isn't micorsoft.data, lightswitch, web matrix. They have thieir place perhaps even if they are overhyped. My worry is that microsoft have ogoe myopic again, focussing way too much on crud/rad and almost no effort on things like IronRuby. If they don't change that I don't see the .net sphere being a good place to be in a few years. http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment36http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment36Mon, 09 Aug 2010 22:08:54 GMTIf it's a part of Visual Studio, then its going to EVEN harder to separate the wheat from the chaff when reviewing CVs and resumes: I have seriously lost count of the number of people who claim ASP.NET skills when all they have done it written/consumed a web service! http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment35http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment35Sat, 07 Aug 2010 09:58:33 GMTDont worry about Frans, he's a grouchy, short-fuse type of a guy. I would love to know if the coyness about his hearing the Secret Details of Lightswitch is based on actually hearing any Secret Details. Either way, it doesnt really help the discussion. http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment34http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment34Sat, 07 Aug 2010 09:57:49 GMT@Frans, clearly I've touched a raw nerve, so I apologize. My comments were perhaps unfair and I've clearly offended you. No, I don't hate anyone with a title from MS, not even you. I am disappointed in what appears to me to be a lack of objective and dispassionate analysis from you and Ayende with respect to a product that none of us has actually used or evaluated with any kind of real professional effort. We're professionals. Let's act like it. What do you say? http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment33http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment33Sat, 07 Aug 2010 02:24:32 GMT@Tyler err... I just wanted to say that it might have been the case that us MVPs was shown more than non-MVPs was shown. I don't brag about being an MVP, why should I? But I don't know what your problem is, it looks like you have some kind of hate towards either people who got some title from MS or who disagree with you on some amateur targeted toolkit. So be it. If you want to write posts on blogs about who wrong we are, go ahead. Personally I'd invest that energy in something productive... http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment32http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment32Fri, 06 Aug 2010 16:50:56 GMT@Frans: definitely not the same comments. Jeez, Frans are you interested in facts or just want to throw around blustering opinions and brag about being an MVP? Disagreed with both of you yes. MS showing you more than the rest of us because you're and MVP. Total BS. And you know it. Called you on you're BS assumptions. Sure! Embarrassed? I would be too. http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment31http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment31Fri, 06 Aug 2010 15:40:44 GMTI think that this is their way to fight OSS by dumping. I see it more as act of desperation that as a strategy. Another companies have tried and failed. Back in the 80's I went to IBM Boca Raton with "my degree under the belt" :-) and I was told that they were not hiring developers since they were training secretaries to do programming. Several years later they closed their shop here in Boca. Microsoft was founded by a guy that "borrowed" an OS and made billions but if they can not continue to "borrow" they have to dump. http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment30http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment30Fri, 06 Aug 2010 13:53:54 GMT@Ian I think what you mean is "MS Access should be like this", not "Visual Studio should have this". It's not that the tool is of bad quality, it's about the target and purpose of the tool. If you read about Microsoft.Data, you should see the same reaction. http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment29http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment29Fri, 06 Aug 2010 10:11:35 GMTMost system I have worked on have had lots of tables of “config” data, that only gets changed a few times a year once the system is up and running. E.g Adding a new doctor in a patient admin system. I see LightSwich as being a quick way to get the “admin” app up and running. The fact that I can add validation checks for changes in the data source means it can be safe as well (“once a doctor has patients the doctor cannot be deleted”) The fact that as a .net programmer I don’t have to learn many new skills to extent a LightSwich application is great! I don’t see LightSwich being used for high transaction volume, but in most systems, most forms edit low volume data. http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment28http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment28Fri, 06 Aug 2010 09:39:58 GMTMark, Actually, it sits on EF already, so I got that market :-) http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment27http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment27Fri, 06 Aug 2010 09:11:53 GMTLightSwitch Profiler! :P http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment26http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment26Fri, 06 Aug 2010 09:10:11 GMTIndeed it's an unfortunate idea the MS is still tring to promote this kind of "app. builders" which mare very easy to create CRUD applications. Indeed, similar software (Access, 4'th Dimension, Filemaker) has been very successful and to some extent still is, and such products have grown into very complex products. The problem is that people have developed very complex business applications using them, which are now very difficult to maintain and extend, and usually, after 10 - 15 years of changes the product is too expensive to be rewritten. http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment25http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment25Fri, 06 Aug 2010 09:03:45 GMT@Tyler Hey, you posted the exact same reply here as you did on my blog. Interesting, as Oren and I wrote different articles. As I replied there: you don't know what we saw of LightSwitch, as we're MVPs and MS might have shown us more than you have seen so far on the internet. Sure there are assumptions going on as the real bits are still not released, but that's besides the point: what MS communicated to us might have given us more insight in what the tool is all about than what you have read so far in the web. http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment24http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment24Fri, 06 Aug 2010 08:14:12 GMT@g get some real world experience under your belt and come back in 15 years. sounds like a great plan but that's not how it works. as soon as mgr sees the screen he thinks the app is done, turns it on, and leaves it on. no one ever re-writes anything - what planet are you from? http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment23http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment23Fri, 06 Aug 2010 05:24:04 GMTI disagree with most of the sentiments in this post and the comments that follow. There are multiple factual inaccuracies and prejudicial arguments that are wholly without foundation here. Watch the video demos and read the information released on official blogs more carefully. LightSwitch is definitely NOT a 4GL in the traditional sense. The rest of the assumptions and ill informed criticisms here poorly represent the stature you have achieved in the .NET developer community as an informed and thoughtful professional. http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment22http://ayende.com/4575/lightswitch-the-return-of-the-secretary#comment22Fri, 06 Aug 2010 05:23:49 GMT