http://ayende.comAyende @ RahienCopyright (C) Ayende Rahien 2004 - 2021 (c) 202660Ah, yes - that's true. Well, that's the problem you must solve, if you're going to make it true ORM-independent ;) E.g. alert detectors can be a part of profiler-side API. On the other hand, all info gathering stuff should be @ profiled side. Frankly speaking, I studied NHProf just by screenshots you publish, so I don't know if it's even possible or not to implement this. I general, I feel it must be possible, but I don't know the details. Anyway, if there will be such an API, we'd be glad to build a plugin for DO4. http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment26http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment26Mon, 05 Oct 2009 15:36:00 GMTAlex, Is IS better. But it means that there is a lot of stuff there that _I_ would need to handle. It is not just a matter of opening up some sort of an API. http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment25http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment25Mon, 05 Oct 2009 15:27:40 GMT> Most of the work NH Prof is doing is done on the profiler side, not on the profiled side. Err... That seems even better. On the other hand, I suspect there must be significant differences in alerts and their detection. http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment24http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment24Mon, 05 Oct 2009 15:25:45 GMTJudah, What do you want to see there? http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment23http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment23Mon, 05 Oct 2009 14:18:47 GMTOren, Just to throw ideas out there, DB4O doesn't have any profiler, and of course SQL Profiler does not work in that space. We could really use a DB4O profiler there. I'd pay money for it. It would obviously require a big big big change in your code. But I thought I'd throw it out there as a wild idea. http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment22http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment22Mon, 05 Oct 2009 14:08:40 GMTAlex, That is not quite as easy as it may seems. Most of the work NH Prof is doing is done on the profiler side, not on the profiled side. Things like extracting parameters, formatting SQL,defining alerts, etc. http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment21http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment21Mon, 05 Oct 2009 14:07:55 GMT> I think that you can plug into Entity Framework via reflection pretty easily. I think it's better to start from providing an open API for NHProf. If so, most ORM vendors (+ community) will create its implementations for each ORM by their own, and you'll get significantly bigger market area with almost zero efforts. http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment20http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment20Mon, 05 Oct 2009 14:00:27 GMTThat's actually a great idea. I think you must mainly think about client-side profiling API allowing any ORM to notify it on a particular event. > There are things that I can do with NHibernate that are simply not possible with other OR/Ms (something like tracking loaded entities per session, for example, or showing cached queries) It's easy to support them if API is open. If you'll be quick, you have high chances to be the very first on this market ;) http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment19http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment19Mon, 05 Oct 2009 13:55:48 GMTI think that you can plug into Entity Framework via reflection pretty easily. The Api would change every 2 years or so but that should not be a problem. http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment18http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment18Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:11:44 GMTKim, I saw that, yes. That is my comment about the nine times harder than anything else. http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment17http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment17Mon, 05 Oct 2009 10:03:08 GMTI would also be interested in a product for EF. Have you looked at wrapping providers? [http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/EFProviderWrappers](http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/EFProviderWrappers) High level overview: [blogs.msdn.com/.../...le-on-msdn-code-gallery.aspx](http://blogs.msdn.com/jkowalski/archive/2009/06/11/tracing-and-caching-in-entity-framework-available-on-msdn-code-gallery.aspx) http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment16http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment16Mon, 05 Oct 2009 09:59:34 GMTThat is more or less my point, for xProf, I can't expect you to do that. http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment15http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment15Mon, 05 Oct 2009 09:58:09 GMTI see where you are going and in that case as darn manual as it gets. http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment14http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment14Mon, 05 Oct 2009 09:51:13 GMTWhen I am talking about manual, I am talking about having to touch every single query that you make http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment13http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment13Mon, 05 Oct 2009 09:42:55 GMTAyende, Semi-manual. I turned the dumping to text file on/off in ".config" whenever I have had a problem with my queries and it became quite obvious that EF in it's current release form has some serious issues with joins ;) http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment12http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment12Mon, 05 Oct 2009 09:38:14 GMTMikael, You are doing this manually, per each query? http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment11http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment11Mon, 05 Oct 2009 09:33:20 GMTNeonp. Put simply, L2S is a low hanging fruit, it is very easy to plug into it and it is a great PoC of the xProfiler. And no, I am specifically NOT talking about EF for now http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment10http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment10Mon, 05 Oct 2009 09:30:35 GMTSean, I would need to see how many people request it, and anyway it is something that I'll only consider after I finish the L2S one. http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment9http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment9Mon, 05 Oct 2009 09:29:42 GMTAyende, I found the information I needed at [http://www.scip.be/index.php?Page=ArticlesNET13](http://www.scip.be/index.php?Page=ArticlesNET13) you might need to dig deeper into the framework though. Anyway EF is probably not as big as L2SQL yet so I guess it can wait for a while. http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment8http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment8Mon, 05 Oct 2009 08:17:13 GMTSounds very good to me - how about adding XPO from Developer Express to the list sometime? http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment7http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment7Mon, 05 Oct 2009 08:08:50 GMTHi Ayende, Why would you like to support LINQ To SQL whilst it has been annouced that it is discontinued ? Were you talking about Entity Framework ? http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment6http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment6Mon, 05 Oct 2009 08:00:10 GMTMikael, How are you doing this? And as for the difficulty, there is going to be a post about it today http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment5http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment5Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:54:17 GMTHi Ayende, I am currently switching between NHibernate and Entity Framework and will continue to do so the coming years. I will end up buying NHProf eventually but I'd really love to see some Entity Framework support there. Why is it harder to hook in to? I already built some simple query dumping / profiling methods for it and it wasn't that hard but maybe if you try to dig deeper into the framework it gets harder? Have you talked to the guys at the Entity Framework team about your plans? Maybe they'd be able to give you a few hints! Further I am glad to see these plans of multiple ORM support. It is something that has been totally missing and it's going to be many developers best friend. Great work! http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment4http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment4Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:48:10 GMTMike, Yes, that is actually planned http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment3http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment3Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:44:26 GMTAny chance of a version that profiles ADO based code? Having something like NHProf for legacy code would be amazingly helpful. Working with SQL Profiler after using NHProf feels like I'm going back to the stone age :) http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment2http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment2Mon, 05 Oct 2009 02:14:55 GMTSweet! As I tend towards SubSonic at the moment, that's good news. As it's Open Source, maybe Rob Conery can add some hooks that would make "SubProf" more awesome? But in any case, you're really filling a hole here, as "Just use SQL Server Profiler to profile your ORM" is not the most satisfying situation and anything that makes the ORM Black Box more transparent without losing ORM functionality (aka. "If it's slow, just replace it with hand-written ADO.net") is great! http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment1http://ayende.com/4227/xprofiler-a-generic-or-m-profiler#comment1Sun, 04 Oct 2009 23:28:52 GMT