http://ayende.comAyende @ RahienCopyright (C) Ayende Rahien 2004 - 2021 (c) 202660Goku, That hasn't been my experience, moreover, I can tell you that often, NH out performs hand rolled data access layers. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment44http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment44Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:22:19 GMTThanks ayende for this blog. NHibernate is giving me performance issues even on the most trivial of tasks, so I hope what you put in this article will help me. Regardless of how powerful and easy an ORM tool can make your life, peformance will _always_ be at the top of the list. Great will be the day when an ORM can peform very close to straight ADO.Net. I find all your posts informative. Keep it up. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment43http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment43Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:19:59 GMT> Just stop doing this and in a while he will be forgotten... I'd be glad, but you comment and comment ;) http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment42http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment42Wed, 26 Aug 2009 12:18:37 GMTAlthough it isn't related to the subject, the book is really good. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment41http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment41Wed, 26 Aug 2009 12:17:38 GMTfor those of you who still don't know what the only intention of alex here is read this book: Positioning: The Battle for Your Mind, 20th Anniversary Edition ...Positioning describes a revolutionary approach to creating a "position" in a prospective customer's mind that reflects a company's own strengths and weaknesses as well as those of its competitors... @ALL: if you keep commenting alex posts he will continue posting and posting. Just stop doing this and in a while he will be forgotten.... http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment40http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment40Tue, 25 Aug 2009 19:16:47 GMTAlex, I believe you're a good guy, with honest intentions and good product. But I also believe that you are doing yourself and your product a big disservice by crusading here. You obviously struck a nerve with Ayende, and vice versa, but stop this now, before it's too late. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment39http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment39Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:53:49 GMT> So I expect that the product lacks code coverage and so on. ~ 75%, I'll provide full info shortly. That's lower than code coverage of NH, but definitely not significantly: [stackoverflow.com/.../is-there-any-info-on-nhib...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1304103/is-there-any-info-on-nhibernate-code-coverage-by-its-test-suite) Btw, NH has really good code coverage. But what about the others? Frankly speaking, I was unable to find any coverage info about other ORM tools at all. So, @LEXX... Your post is definitely uber-fail here ;) http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment38http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment38Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:12:44 GMTNicer and nicer: > done by few guys from Ural Yep, 6-person team x 2.5 years. Now honestly compare this to NH team. > The only company phone number I found on the web site Phone & fax: +7 343 263 7174 (general), sales: +7 922 222 7300 > which belongs to you personally Yes. That's my phone, and I never hide this. > (Megafon - Ural - cheapest russian network) Definitely not cheapest. > ridiculous I'd say, clever. Our working hours significantly differ from Europe and US, that's why I leave my cell phone. And yes, I answer even at 4AM. > I doubt that your company has any idea about delivery management. All that I see is that you keep saying - we fix this immediately. So do you see anything that wasn't fixed? ;) > Estimating orm tools from the phone numbers and geographical coordinates - unheard stupidity for my money. Actually I couldn't assume such ... even exist. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment37http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment37Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:05:48 GMT@LEXX U d better show at least some respect. Estimating orm tools from the phone numbers and geographical coordinates - unheard stupidity for my money. BTW I hope Ayende doesnt need any support from such emo boys. Anyway - that's ok! What is _not_ ok is that LEXX represents the general level of community here - agressive, arrogant and disrespectful to other points of view. No need to wonder if most of the guys bashing Alex have ever given a try to his tool. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment36http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment36Tue, 25 Aug 2009 14:50:22 GMTNot to beat a dead horse to death, but there seems to be some reasonable folks out there doing comparisons. I just ran across this: [gregdoesit.com/.../nhibernate-vs-entity-framewo...](http://gregdoesit.com/2009/08/nhibernate-vs-entity-framework-%E2%80%93-a-revised-performance-comparison/) and basically the bottom line is: choose an ORM for the features, and don't worry about performance, since the tests aren't real world anyways. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment35http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment35Tue, 25 Aug 2009 13:11:39 GMT@Alex, You d better relax man. I really think Ayende should just ban you on his blog. The reason he haven't done this yet is that he is a respectful person. But you simply use others person blog for promotion that f..ing dirty. IMHO, nobody will take your product for serious for couple of reasons: 1. No tricks will force me to prefer a well known, open source, time proof, well supported system (NH) to a commercial product done by few guys from Ural. I am not that crazy. 2. The only company phone number I found on the web site is the cell which belongs to you personally (Megafon - Ural - cheapest russian network) - ridiculous 3. Your promotion is really dirty, you gain no respect from community. So I think your customer relation is the same. 4. I doubt that your company has any idea about delivery management. All that I see is that you keep saying - we fix this immediately. So I expect that the product lacks code coverage and so on. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment34http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment34Tue, 25 Aug 2009 09:04:43 GMT> Dont forget mySQL was fast too, until they started implementing features. Well, this isn't our case, believe me ;) http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment33http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment33Mon, 24 Aug 2009 13:43:21 GMT@ Stephen: I'm curious, what is batching system. Is this related to databases / ORM tools at all? I wrote about batching because, as tests show, many ORM have this feature, and, argue you or not, it is important. Batching in ORM appeared much earlier than e.g. these tests. So I don't understand your point. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment32http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment32Mon, 24 Aug 2009 13:42:17 GMTMy thingy is faster then your thingy blah blah blah... Dont forget mySQL was fast too, until they started implementing features. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment31http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment31Sun, 23 Aug 2009 21:47:36 GMTthanks! http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment30http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment30Sun, 23 Aug 2009 04:52:09 GMT@Pete Right there in the NHibernate documentation :-) [http://nhforge.org/doc/nh/en/index.html#batch](http://nhforge.org/doc/nh/en/index.html#batch)http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment29http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment29Sun, 23 Aug 2009 04:49:42 GMT@Firefly, IStatelessSession is mostly for just such tasks, when you want to go through a lot of data very fast. In essence, it is a shortcut through NHibernate, taking care of only very few things in order to speed things up. NH Prof can certainly track stateless sessions, yes @Ray, The fun of using IStatelessSession is that you don't need to worry about hyrdrating your entities, you can take advantage of NH's mapping, database independent, etc. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment28http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment28Sun, 23 Aug 2009 04:43:32 GMTAyende There have been times in the past when I have made the mistake of designing "long and open" sessions, and leveraging NHibernate for ETL. As an API user I assumed these would be realistic things to do. Maybe it was my own ignorance, but do you know of any place that helps describe when NHibernate is NOT a good idea? http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment27http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment27Sun, 23 Aug 2009 02:39:39 GMTI really like your screwhammer picture! It really sums up what this whole 'techie soap' is about. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment26http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment26Sat, 22 Aug 2009 22:33:47 GMTAlex I'm wondering, even if your orm does these kind of operations faster, the whole point is.. an orm isn't a batch processor, you can get as excited as you want that your orm is king of batching, but put in the ring with batching systems your orm won't stand a chance. These sort of benchmarks just don't show a reality, maybe the reality is that your orm is faster, but you aren't convincing anyone with those kinda tests.. as you can see you are just alienating yourself, and I don't buy the argument that any press is good, not in such a professional environment. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment25http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment25Sat, 22 Aug 2009 22:02:22 GMTfirefly, IStatelessSession is a really tricky one. I'd say: if you need large batching operations and NHibernate performance doesn't cut it for you, go for raw ADO.NET batching instead as Oren mentioned. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment24http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment24Sat, 22 Aug 2009 21:17:09 GMTI don't know what exactly Alex tried to achieve but I can say with most certainty: not me, nor my company will EVER even consider their ORM tool no matter how good it is. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment23http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment23Sat, 22 Aug 2009 21:08:41 GMTI think this post is helpful. Still is there any emptor caveat in using a stateless session? Would NHibernate Prof help guide me in anyway? On a side note, I personally would like Alex to go away. He isn't adding anything useful to the mix. I vote to ban him from this site. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment22http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment22Sat, 22 Aug 2009 20:39:58 GMTI can totally understand why you don't want to take this guys crap lying down, but i have to +1 as well - this post is a slam dunk. There just is no debating this fool if this doesn't make him realize the fallacy of his premise. The picture of the "hummer" sums it up pretty nicely :) http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment21http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment21Sat, 22 Aug 2009 20:32:38 GMTAlex, You miss a very important point. I have no interest in participating in your company's marketing ploys. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment20http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment20Sat, 22 Aug 2009 19:49:30 GMTI agree with Chris. I don't think anybody who has common sense will be ditching NHibernate for the ORMBattle ORM just because of some basic benchmarks. I would much rather read about the Macto project progress, non-SQL databases, etc. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment19http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment19Sat, 22 Aug 2009 18:45:48 GMTchris +1 I don't think this company and its advertisements are worth your energy. The washing powder of the advertising company *always* washes cleaner than the "regular washing powder". http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment18http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment18Sat, 22 Aug 2009 18:19:32 GMTAyende, i like reading your blog very much but please please stop blogging about performance and benchmark for a while. I am really tired of seeing this one special face here over and over again. I miss blogs like the one about the erlang stuff. I would like to read something about the Axum Incubation Project, F# or maybe about the sqlalchemy orm for pyhon. it should work with ironpython now. What is possible with an orm running on the DLR compared to CLR ones? Or is it more fun to use NH on ironpython ? Thanks for your very informative blogs. I am 20 years in the IT business and learn something knew with every post from you. I really enjoy it ...but not this alex stuff... http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment17http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment17Sat, 22 Aug 2009 18:03:36 GMT> Alex, is the source code of the benchmark itself publicly available? Yes: [http://code.google.com/p/ormbattle/downloads/list](http://code.google.com/p/ormbattle/downloads/list) If you need access to source code repository (there is most current test code), please write to info @ ormbattle.net. > As for your bet, assuming you mean batching, it is meaningless. NH has this for 4 years. Well, I promised to describe our own batching & related techniques, and I'm writing the post about this ;) So I'm talking about the ideas I'm going to share. I don't care about ADO.NET batching - i.e. obviously, I knew it exists, and I didn't mean it. Moreover, I also wrote about materialization speed. If current materialization speed of NH is good enough, just say you won't optimize this further, and confirm that our results are meaningless in real life in action. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment16http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment16Sat, 22 Aug 2009 17:29:12 GMTAlex, Your tests are all about running queries in a loop. Whenever you call the DB in a loop, it is a bug. Take a look at the fallacies of distributed computing to understand exactly why. As for your bet, assuming you mean batching, it is meaningless. NH has this for 4 years. http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment15http://ayende.com/4137/nhibernate-perf-tricks#comment15Sat, 22 Aug 2009 17:02:15 GMT