http://ayende.comAyende @ RahienCopyright (C) Ayende Rahien 2004 - 2021 (c) 202660> "If you want to show me a DSL, show me one that has logic, not one that is a glorified serialization format. " This is only one small way to use a DSL. And, it's not a good example, I'm afraid, of the potential of Oslo. Perhaps Microsoft is slow to real-world examples, because they're tackling a space that is much wider than anything else in a given area Oslo is involved with (e.g. model-driven development, pre-built frameworks, guidance and more). When it's done, it'll probably be a distilled unification of a number of practices and paradigms going on in the market today, but under one umbrella. DSLs are executable in nature and declarative in nature. You don't have to have one that 'has logic' to be a DSL. Many DSLs are no more than configuration information for a pre-built framework. Commercial-grade scenarios typically work with a suite of DSLs in a single space, e.g. one that provides the web framework configuration/customization, one that provides the app security, another that provides the ORM mapping, another for biz rules and the list goes on. All of these can be in a single web app, for example, working together to rapidly build a complex commercial-grade solution by parsing DSL info into a repository, which is extracted by everything from code generators to middleware to pre-built frameworks as cfg data. http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment22http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment22Sun, 19 Apr 2009 05:08:21 GMT> I don’t have a problem stating that I still don’t see the whole point there The 'whole picture' is *scattered* amongst a number of emerging technologies and paradigms. Oslo appears to be attempting to grasp all of these, or at least the lion's share of them, into a single thing called Microsoft Oslo. THE core concept is: increase productivity via some derivative concepts: - pre-built frameworks - a pre-package architecture into which you apply, ... - guided customization - this is a lengthy topic, basically you "limit" customization, or "guide" it via provided conventions and constraints - optimized development methodology - I hate to use the term "model-driven", b/c pre-used terms conjure up old ideas. A practical example would be Ruby on Rails. However, there are larger app spaces to consider, e.g. MetaCase - a graphical modeling tool, and quite mature in terms of paradigm, practice and results. openArchitectureWare - too 'techie', Microsoft will lower the skills bar vs. this as it is today. (However, one could build on top of XText/et.al. in the same way one would M or MGrammar. For example, *non-techncal* users *can* be enabled to build artifacts (e.g. specs) that contribute to the SDLC directly. See [http://cukes.info/](http://cukes.info/) for another example. When it comes to M, it falls under this 'domain-specific language' umbrella. The problem with the 'DSL' topic is it's "scattered", too. DSLs come in so many forms, you might as well say they're anything BUT general-purpose programming languages (excluding those that intrinsically enable/support them, "internal DSLs" as Martin Fowler (I believe) coined it). The 'big picture' for Oslo is a very wide mosaic. That's why most aren't getting it right away. http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment21http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment21Sun, 19 Apr 2009 04:57:27 GMTYes, like Antti mentioned above, MisBehave takes the path opened by rspec/cucumber, which is the approach suggested by Dan North to define a language for defining executable specifications. The story snippet that you mentioned is taken out of context. It is a descriptive snippet and should be matched with the relevant scenarios that DO eventually map to executable code. We regularly write automated acceptance tests this way (using cucumber), so it addresses a real world problem. I haven't "finished" Misbehave simply because I wanted to play with MGrammar rather than provide a fully working framework. If enough people scream about it, I'll build a fully working version to match cucumber. The question however should be: does MGrammar add anything that GoldParser does not have? I've never used GoldParser before, but I since learned that they are EXTREMELY similar, at least so far, so maybe it is not a big deal after all. Perhaps MGrammar is a small piece of the Oslo vision though - only time will tell. http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment20http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment20Thu, 02 Apr 2009 15:10:33 GMTMisBehave has taken its syntax from the Ruby BDD tool Cucumber. To see what problem it solves, go to [http://cukes.info/](http://cukes.info/) . http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment19http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment19Thu, 02 Apr 2009 06:28:55 GMTAt the PDC and since I've spoken with Don, Chris Sells, and Glenn Block about the possibility of them helping Greg Leake in doing an Oslo/MEF/Unity port of his .NET StockTrader reference app which I suggested might make a good candidate for an Oslo reference app of some substance. All of them sounded pretty up for doing that and providing Greg with whatever resources he needed to make that happen. When I finally got ahold of Greg, which took awhile, he said he definitely wanted to take it to 4.0 and Oslo as well - so hopefully it will as I agree a reference app of some substance really needs to be put out there as a vehicle to get the essential ideas across. http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment18http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment18Thu, 26 Mar 2009 06:58:14 GMT"If you want to show me a DSL, show me one that has logic, not one that is a glorified serialization format. That is the sweet spot for a DSL, to extract policy decisions from your systems, so you can work with them at a higher level and have easier time making change." Couldn't agree with you more, the whole XSD discussion at PDC was ridiculous and they do seem to have gone overboard on the model is data and all behavior is (Windows) workflow idea. There may be scope for it to be a great idea, especially when used over an existing model, but so far the story has left me extremely cold. Anyway I'd still recommend this blog: [http://tinyfinger.blogspot.com/](http://tinyfinger.blogspot.com/)http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment17http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment17Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:47:24 GMTAs any show biz star you have to rely on noise to get the publicity that supports your business. http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment16http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment16Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:38:58 GMTWile looking for something else, I stumbled on a quote attributed to Don Box yesterday in the Oslo forums that does confirm to some extent that the story isn't fully told here. I'll try to dig up the link and post it back here in a couple of hours. The short of it was there was still work going on in unifying Mgrammar and M so that there is a direct mapping from "things" specified in the DSL to the model. This would cut down to some extent the code I'm finding myself writing, particularly as the tooling ecosystem that will develop around M appears (putting some things in the DB just to query them back and execute it later seems a little alien), http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment15http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment15Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:18:05 GMTI can sort of see the usefulness in MGrammar for building external DSLs, how it compares to ANTLR or GoldParser I am not sure. But doing something useful with MGrammar requires a lot of work (on the runtime), maybe Justins MetaSharp could help there. Anyway I share your confusion of where Microsoft is going with this, and what the real problems are that they are trying to solve. Especially confusing is the whole M modeling and SQL schema generation, M Repository, M model data driven by behavior defined in workflows etc. It would be great with a full source example of a real application to show exactly how they envision this being used for real applications. http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment14http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment14Tue, 24 Mar 2009 07:40:33 GMTI got the feeling writing the DSL in M would give you a text editor for the language (inellisense, etc), "for free". I wonder how does M stack vs MPS( [http://www.jetbrains.com/mps/index.html](http://www.jetbrains.com/mps/index.html)) ? So many interesting things, so little time ... http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment13http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment13Mon, 23 Mar 2009 21:03:39 GMTAyende Rahien: I think you are missing a number of key points about "M" that I would be happy to discuss with you. If you have seen the video from our MIX talk ( [http://videos.visitmix.com/MIX09/T11F](http://videos.visitmix.com/MIX09/T11F)), we covered some of that at a cursory level, but there is a _lot_ of detail that you may be interested in. I am happy to have an email thread or a call to discuss. Shoot me email at douglasp@microsoft.com if you are interested. BTW: You may want to read [blog.jclark.com/.../getting-involved-with-m.html](http://blog.jclark.com/2009/03/getting-involved-with-m.html) (he was _very_ involved with the formation of the entire XML stack), for his view. http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment12http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment12Mon, 23 Mar 2009 19:44:38 GMTI would hope that the story of Oslo has not been told to completion. M seems to be the bit that is most presentable. I don't think that people are that amazed at Oslo, but I have hopes that the working with models will be made easier with an offering like Oslo. http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment11http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment11Mon, 23 Mar 2009 18:10:19 GMTI'm not very familiar with ANTLR but I think the difference is just that MGrammar parses a tree and gives you objects at runtime (MGraph) while ANTLR (I'm not 100% on this) generates code that needs to be compiled. There is a big difference between M and MGrammar too... http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment10http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment10Mon, 23 Mar 2009 16:52:07 GMTThomas, FWIW, ANTLR has tree parsing syntax. http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment9http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment9Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:51:44 GMTconfigurator Not easily, no http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment8http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment8Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:44:59 GMTRyan, Not that I easily see. The syntax seems easier for the simplest stuff, and it has builtin support for VS. ANTLR has similar support for eclipse. http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment7http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment7Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:44:08 GMTI haven't done much with M, but I have been doing a fair bit with Mgrammar here lately and I would have to concur. Mgrammar is a nice tool for generating parsers but so is ANTLRv3. Still, at the end of the day you have to do something with the parse tree and that generally means writing some code. Perhaps what's needed is a "meta language", something that has concise syntax for pattern matching and operating 'over tree structures (thinly veiled plug for F#). In some ways, I think Intellipad is actually the most interesting part of "Oslo" so far. http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment6http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment6Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:42:54 GMTI totally agree with you Oren. When I first peeked at M I thought it was a serialization format. This was primarily because of the "Oslo" repository thing, and models being stored in the database. When I looked at the demo code, I realized that you could use M to define grammars also. I still don't understand why people are amazed by M. M is nothing special, and even if you have some tool support, it doesn't come close that what more mature parser/generators like ANTLR has. And I really don't get the entire "Oslo" vision, what is that all about? http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment5http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment5Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:34:33 GMT(Disclaimer: I know nothing about DSLs) Can M be used in combination with any other DSL toolkit? Do other DSL toolkits even exist? What I mean here is, can you use M for what it's good for, or are there serious drawbacks? http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment4http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment4Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:16:30 GMTDoes M have any advantages over ANTLR's tree transforms for creating and manipulating AST? That stuff was very handy when building query DSL. http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment3http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment3Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:10:23 GMTI have created a project for translating MGraph into executable code easily: [http://metasharp.codeplex.com/](http://metasharp.codeplex.com/) sample: [metasharp.codeplex.com/.../View.aspx](http://metasharp.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.aspx?title=Song%20Sample) http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment2http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment2Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:08:11 GMTTo a certain extent, I agree with this. M does transform an input and returns an output in the form of structured data no matter which way you cut it. I have been using M (specifically MGrammar) on bdUnit ( [usingsystembeginner.blogspot.com/.../...using.html](http://usingsystembeginner.blogspot.com/2009/02/bdunit-bdd-unit-test-dsl-using.html)) and I find that I do need to carry out a lot of work in backend C# to deserialize the structured data and then manipulate the types/objects that this produced. However, MGrammar does give fine grained control over how an input is tokenised and transformed/serialized. I chose MGrammar/M/Oslo because of the control it gave over the input syntax without too many compromises. I believe this is a key requirement when creating an external DSL, especially one which needs to be 'Business-Readable' and 'Business-Writable'. http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment1http://ayende.com/3922/m-is-to-dsl-as-drag-drop-is-to-programming#comment1Mon, 23 Mar 2009 12:46:47 GMT