http://ayende.comAyende @ RahienCopyright (C) Ayende Rahien 2004 - 2021 (c) 202660 I think I did, but I don't see the point of such complains if we don't take the broader prespective. I agree with you that no QA env is a no can do. I also agree that in big companies the management of the QA env is not given to the right people. Probably the problem is in the methodology aligned to the environment. So we need to be creative. If QA env lack of management becomes a bottleneck then it becomes a PM problem. But we need to be able to communicate why. If they say no, then we need to change methodology. That is what I was stating. Nuno PS: Third party in big companies is just around the corner. So communication, comunication, comunication ..... http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment10http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment10Thu, 02 Apr 2009 10:27:56 GMTNuno, You missed the point of this post by about a mile. QA in this case meant the QA env. of 3rd party integration, not QA for my project. http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment9http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment9Wed, 01 Apr 2009 18:01:52 GMTQA is ALWAYS different from production!!!!! This is not to say that QA shoudn't be there. I usually work for big companies and these have a QA environment. Indeed usually the first one to mess up the QA are the dev people. To tell you the through the biggest time consuming task is to get these companies to decide on what they want (Organization). In other words, to get them to conclude that the best solution is actually the first solution presented. I was "brought" up learning that UI layer changes far more often then the middleware, and te middlerware changes far more often then the core system etc etc, The fact is, unless you are producing a product or generic framework, everything changes all the time. So the only solution is to work as a team, learning and teaching each other (from business to dev people). For that matter we need to some tolerance. Quality at a budget (as of cost sensible action) is an ongoing effort for which there is not silver bullet. No automatic system, no TDD nothing that solves it. You need good people for that, but also a fair amount of tolerance and understading so that the load can be bared by all. I read the a Udi article where everything was done by the book, a system that took to years of development etc etc. They had the budget to do everything by the book still it only survived in Production for a few hours as far as he described. Was it coded by monkeys? No, but I'm sure other (not you Ayende) would be saying just the same about their effort. Blaming QA is just too easy. For me the only solution is to ship the stuff in feature by feature rather then trying to solve all the problems in one batch. Ship little, ship fast, ship often. I mean, put stuff in production every fourtnight rather then every three months or more. That is the only way to assure quality at a lower cost. That is my opinion. Nuno PS: I'm not a QA person by the way. Just a developer. http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment8http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment8Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:49:55 GMTI can't agree more. I used to work regularily with one of the "big three" credit bureaus and we got bit by the "QA Environment is different than their Production Environment" pretty badly one time. Also, it is amazing how many services don't have QA environments at all, or they do, but they share the same database as their production system which cause no end of troubles. http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment7http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment7Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:02:46 GMT@Thomas Eyde Authority & Responsibility are twins that cannot be separated. Corporate Survival 101 Give the client all the options but let them make the decision. Lawyering 101 Above all - give great service and take the $$$ to the bank! http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment6http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment6Mon, 23 Mar 2009 11:58:09 GMTAh, my mistake. Still, the technique described is useful of course. :) Integrating WITH a separate system is much harder to control that kind of thing, yeah. http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment5http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment5Sun, 22 Mar 2009 17:14:44 GMTKyle, Sorry that I wasn't clear. I am not talking about integrating a component into my system. I am talking about integrating a separate _system_. Something like payment authorization, creating customers in a separate system, etc. http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment4http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment4Sun, 22 Mar 2009 17:04:06 GMTAyende, I know you're aware of this, but for your readers, in case they aren't: If a 3rd party component has side-effects that you know about, that's easy to handle - you wrap the component in your own interface and remove the direct dependency. Then, for the QA env., you just use an implementation that doesn't have the side-effects - e.g. if the program had to email a bunch of people, you have an email service that just logs it to a shared-drive or whatever you're allowed to, instead of actually emailing all of your clients. This is easy to switch out using a plug-in architecture, or an IOC container, depending on your situation. Conversely, if a 3rd party component has side-effects that you do NOT know about, then I would think you'd have some kind of way of getting money back from them for negligence. I don't know though - just a thought. http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment3http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment3Sun, 22 Mar 2009 15:30:58 GMT@Mr_Simple: Assuming we have a client willing to spend all this time and money. The majority of my clients like so much to make decisions, but somehow always finds it natural to never take responsibility for said decisions. It's funny how we, the vendors, are always the one who should know. http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment2http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment2Sun, 22 Mar 2009 14:51:58 GMTI gave up on clients having any sense long ago and just let them pay extra $$$ to have me hang out and do all the stupid sh*t you just listed. For some bizzare reason they think it's cheaper in the long run. It takes a while to get used to, and some consultants never do, but when you're bored just login to your bank and stare at your account balance growing. Clients never learn. Just keep churning out a great product and let them do what they're best at - giving you $$$. http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment1http://ayende.com/3917/3rd-party-integration-assumption-other-system-was-written-by-a-drunken-monkey-typing-with-his-feet#comment1Sun, 22 Mar 2009 13:48:07 GMT