http://ayende.comAyende @ RahienCopyright (C) Ayende Rahien 2004 - 2021 (c) 202660I think that is what people are saying is you could Disagree without being Disagreeable. They're not saying don't point out problems, they're saying do so without attacking. http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment26http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment26Wed, 12 Nov 2008 20:06:52 GMTI have no affiliation with monorail or ASP MVC. I just wanted to let you know though that reading your blog does look suspiciously like 01: You took offence (rightly or wrongly I have no way of knowing and no reason to care). 02: As a form of childish revenge you are posting as many negative things as you can about a product the perceived attacker works on.. This may or may not be the case, in honesty I am not bothered either way. I just wanted to let you know what I thought as I read your blogs. In the grand scheme of life none of it matters. People should put this much energy into things that really matter, like people starving to death. http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment25http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment25Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:57:38 GMTI would haven't even thought of writing an apology, let alone bothered to publish it. There are exceptions, of course, but usually the best thing you can do for people is to tell them the truth, and as soon as possible at that. That's why we use unit tests, isn'it? http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment24http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment24Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:00:52 GMTThe alternative .NET framework is webforms... that should tell you why some are defensive about the asp.net mvc :) I as well would use Monorail, but (ok, my slam) - it was changing so much all the time with guys rewriting the underlying structure of it that I was concerned about it's overall stability and it's persistence to live. Hopefully constructive unbiased criticism will help the framework grow. MS didn't listen at all with the Entity framework, so at least they seem to take input on this framework. I guess my current project would be Monorail if my only current choice was webforms. (and I did many project with asp.net webforms and I was always fighting the framework - especially dealing with the client side and the markup it generated). http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment23http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment23Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:20:39 GMTShiju, I do post them as bugs in codeplex. That doesn't mean that I am not going to post about them here. http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment22http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment22Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:19:36 GMT@Oren How dare you not drink the Koolade! ;) Funny how so many people in this day and age lose their objectivity when someone identifies problems with their favorite "thing". http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment21http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment21Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:45:28 GMTI have to agree that you are coming off as unnecessarily negative, especially since several of the "bugs" you have encountered are user error on your end. I've been working with MVC for a couple of months, and I have done a lot of the things you've blogged about *without* running into the issues you've run in to (your recent select list post being a prime example). I think you are incorrectly assuming that just because things don't work the way *you* expect that they are poorly designed. Yeah, the documentation needs some love, but I've found most everything (including select lists) work as I expected on first guess. http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment20http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment20Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:34:22 GMTYou are telling me you still read Ayende's post titles? I always go straight to the text :) No matter the tone, this is one blog many developers, both ASP.NET MVC and non-MS follow and hopefully issues raised here will keep the MVC development team just a little more sharp. http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment19http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment19Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:28:04 GMT@James His post "And yet ANOTHER ASP.Net MVC Bug" is a wrong title. Because its not a bug. That is how the API is intended to be used. He can give his opinion about the API design. But a post with title "And yet ANOTHER ASP.Net MVC Bug" is really look like negative words. http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment18http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment18Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:42:37 GMT@ Shiju, Why shouldn't he post (or "market") the bugs? It might help others who have the same problems instead of keeping it quiet and waiting for you to fix it. http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment17http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment17Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:48:16 GMTIf you find a bug, please report into CodePlex rather than marketing the bug. http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment16http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment16Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:27:22 GMTPersonally, I have found your ASP.NET MVC posts and responses by Phil Haack and others to be extremely helpful. They highlight issues that may or may not matter to me, they give me an opportunity as a developer to learn different approaches to problems and give Microsoft the opportunity to see what issues there are and whether they really matter to the community so that they can improve things (that sort of feedback must be very valuable to Microsoft). With my support hat on your posts give me the opportunity to learn why things have been written in a certain way or behave a certain way. Your tone may not always be perfect but this is a blog and like you say reflect your state of mind at the time. I don't think the tone particularly detracts from your posts and at times actually makes it more interesting. Keep up the good work and I agree with James I like to hear your thoughts on ASP.NET MVC and MonoRail. http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment15http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment15Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:08:25 GMTI haven't got a chance to use ASP.NET MVC yet so I found Oren post invaluable. I don't see anything wrong with his tone of voice either, so I hope he keep doing what he is doing. I think some people need to man up a little, if a blogger, like Oren, have to think twice before posting lest offend somebody, then it really take away the context of the post and the whole meaning of blogging. http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment14http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment14Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:11:45 GMT@Oren, So what are your thoughts on ASP.NET MVC over MonoRail? Do you see any worthwhile reasons to change? http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment13http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment13Wed, 12 Nov 2008 08:50:48 GMT@josh, MEF had its first preview on codeplex a few months ago. We're planning a new preview soon, but still... it's something to look at and play with, not to take to production (yet). :-) http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment12http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment12Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:34:35 GMTI don't think you're being overly hash on MS MVC. When I find myself battling a framework or technology, I would react in the same way to the things I find frustrating about it. In fact, I'm a little concerned about MEF, which I had planned on using when it comes out, becoming my own personal version of your experience with ASP.Net MVC. http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment11http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment11Wed, 12 Nov 2008 05:46:48 GMTalwin, I felt uncomfortable using MonoRail for this project without really having done a project with ASP.Net MVC as a basis of comparison. I decided to go with ASP.Net MVC on a real project because that would give me a real indication about how it is actually working in production env. http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment10http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment10Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:52:52 GMTKyle, Just to point out, my problem isn't actually with the responses of anyone of the ASP.Net MVC team. http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment9http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment9Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:51:41 GMTDemis, At the time of posting, I believe it to be a bug. At the moment, I think that this is a debatable design decision. And one that has managed to stumble me for too long. As for saying positive things about ASP.Net MVC, see my next to last statement http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment8http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment8Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:40:04 GMTgood for you Oren. You shouldn't have to justify or explain the obvious but you have a high profile and that's the price you pay. That high profile is exactly why your critiques are important. Know quantities such as yourself can get the attention of the folks at MS and hopefully effect change. I'm not saying that's your goal, but we all kind of hope that someone will get through to the mvc team and have a good effect. http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment7http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment7Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:06:51 GMTYour posts are fine, of course, Ayende. Phil has responded fairly well, too. At the very least, he has defended their position non-terribly. I see this as a pseudo-casual debate - and if Phil couldn't take the heat, he'd leave. But he's much too good for that. So both big playas clash a little and we move on and suddenly we have something far superior to what we had before. Assuming that the MVC team takes any or all of Ayende's suggestions into consideration (which they almost certainly are), this could turn out pretty well for everyone. That's how our industry works fairly often, actually, I've found. http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment6http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment6Wed, 12 Nov 2008 01:15:18 GMTI do think you're posts give the impression you don't like ASP.Net MVC. And they're probably more harsh then needed. But it's your blog, write as you please! Out of curiosity, why are you using ASP.Net MVC, instead of Monorail, for this project you're currently working on? http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment5http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment5Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:55:11 GMTThree points: 1) This isn't pre-school. People are *way* too touchy about critiques and criticisms when it comes to programming. If Ayende wants to criticize something he sees as a deficiency, he doesn't need to hold anybody's hand. 2) Like almost any other blogger, Ayende is opinionated. Deal with it. I think he's wrong at least once a week. Since he normally posts 47 times a week, that's a decent average. 3) I'd have a lot more sympathy for his 'plight' if he hadn't whined like a pre-schooler over Haack's *funny* Google crack, as if he'd been called horribly viscious names. When he wasn't. Don't be so whiny about people saying you are 'attacking' Asp.NET Mvc, when you just spent time whining about a friend making a funny joke that you decided to lose your sense of humor about for no reason. 4) People need to lighten up and laugh more. 5) He has an almost fanatic devotion to the pope.... http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment4http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment4Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:54:34 GMTI agree with Demis. http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment3http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment3Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:34:54 GMTYou're ASP.NET MVC attacks are strong, basically you point out all the flaws you can find in a pretty derogatory tone, i.e. by judging your last blog post: "And yet ANOTHER ASP.Net MVC Bug" Makes everyone think that MVC is riddled with bugs and just to make your point clear you use utilize SHOUTING CAPS technology. A lot of the times they aren't really bugs at all just 'design-decisions' and mis-interpretation of the API, which undoubtedly could use more clarification and examples. Apart from that I haven't heard you say one positive thing about the ASP.NET MVC framework. Personally, I think its the 'cleanest' and most 'wrist-friendly' MVC framework I've ever used. I only wished that they had developed it sooner as I think its the ideal 'way' a lot of web apps should be written - which is definately something you dont get from reading your blog. http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment2http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment2Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:08:37 GMTThanks for the post Ayende! Very well written! http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment1http://ayende.com/3690/what-i-am-posting-about#comment1Tue, 11 Nov 2008 22:39:06 GMT