http://ayende.comAyende @ RahienCopyright (C) Ayende Rahien 2004 - 2021 (c) 202660Oren, your post just trigger a memory :) That's all. It shouldn't be their business but in some place it is. I am all for automation myself that's one of the reason I become a programmer in the first place. http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment16http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment16Wed, 10 Sep 2008 08:00:19 GMThttp://ferventcoder.com/archive/2008/09/07/tools-matter-automated-builds--automated-deployments.aspx Strange. We were thinking of the same thing. :D http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment15http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment15Tue, 09 Sep 2008 23:57:59 GMTBureaucracy is made one mistake at a time as a reaction to each incident which is corrected for http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment14http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment14Tue, 09 Sep 2008 02:45:37 GMT"letting the business dictate how it (g)oes to production, which is not acceptable." It's...highly sub-optimal. I'll certainly grant you that. http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment13http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment13Mon, 08 Sep 2008 19:32:01 GMTJdn, What 5 page thingy? The app? That was for managing the audit trail. You were talking about letting the business dictate how it does to production, which is not acceptable. And if going to production takes 12 hours, you are doing too much things manually. http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment12http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment12Mon, 08 Sep 2008 19:15:27 GMTThe importance of automating everything you can cannot be stressed enough. Even for "one man Open Source shows" this will increase the developer's believe in that he can fast create a build without spending a complete afternoon (or week or month) which means that he will in fact create builds more often and thereby fulfilling the "release early, release often" mantra... I have been working (as a consultancy) at places where I would basically quit if I were hired on a regular basis due to the complex build and deploy cycle they had. If nAnt can't do it then break it till it does ;) http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment11http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment11Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:48:07 GMTHmm, isn't your answer to the scenario in your post the 5-page thingy? I've worked in environments where they did just that, and it worked quite well (or, well enough). But in other situations, it's a non-starter, you couldn't really even suggest such a thing (and not only for bad reasons....when a deployment to production takes at least 12 hours, there's a lot that is required to get approval/sign-off, as you know). It is a *real* problem. http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment10http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment10Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:45:06 GMTjdn, I gave just such scenario in the actual post. Not a real problem http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment9http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment9Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:26:32 GMT"Management has no more say into automation than they have about the number of spaces I use to separate operators. Literally, not their business. " Unfortunately, there are organizations where that simply isn't true. Devs have a lot of leeway in automating things, but 'Ops' can veto anything if they choose (for instance). It is preferable, of course, to give them something to veto as opposed to just whining about the difficulties of life. They don't always (and if you can get them to ask for some task to be automated and then give them 10 times what they asked for, all the better). http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment8http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment8Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:23:36 GMTfirefly, Management has no more say into automation than they have about the number of spaces I use to separate operators. Literally, not their business. http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment7http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment7Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:27:36 GMTOren, oh I agree with you entirely. It's annoying and frustrating. It's easy to persuade another developer to buy in on the automation process. Doing that to the management on the other hand doesn't always work. I am not saying it's not worth trying but sometimes it even have the reverse affect. If something goes wrong they come back and blame it on you for something else that's completely irrelevance. Of course you can always have the option to quit the job which is what I did. I am just saying from my person experience it's not always worth while to beat some sense into some senseless people. Sometimes they like it better for you to take advantage of them. It's crazy :) http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment6http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment6Mon, 08 Sep 2008 11:58:19 GMTGreg, Actually, no. Check my JFHCI posts for more details http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment5http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment5Mon, 08 Sep 2008 10:46:46 GMTWhat you're saying is right many more times than it's wrong, but the cost of maintaining these scripts isn't zero. If your workflow is changing too fast (disorganised or just agile, you decide!) it can become prohibitive. But _nearly_ everything that can be automated should. http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment4http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment4Mon, 08 Sep 2008 10:34:31 GMT> "Why bother?" It only takes a single botched deployment to show you why you really want to automate the entire process. And yes, I would consider such behavior annoying, frustrating and unethical http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment3http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment3Mon, 08 Sep 2008 10:11:46 GMTOren I agree with you from a technical stand point. Now if you asked me the same question you asked that guy I can give you a straight face answer "Why bother?" This is for two reason, first either way you'll get pay... I might even have some sort of automation in the background. But as far as the bureaucracy they don't exist :). This keep them happy and off your back and give you more time to goof around perhaps even time to take on a side project. This might sound unethical but if some people actually will faults you for doing what's good for them so why bother. Assume that it take only a week to complete the automation process it's another week for them to get you on the hot seat since this isn't something that the bureaucracy dreamed of. Secondly if something goes wrong with the automation process it's something else for them to blame. Sometimes it's amazing what kind of idiot you have to deal with in the bureaucracy. It become senseless to try to beat any sense into them. So either just go with the flow or quit the job (I chose the later eventually) http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment2http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment2Mon, 08 Sep 2008 06:43:01 GMTIt's amazing how much money organizations will spend building a software application, only to spend ridiculous amounts of money to manually pass it through their convoluted and backwards human processes. It turns out that computers are actually pretty fast at these things and if you just tell it what your process is, it'll work! I suggested to one guy awhile back that, to keep things simple, have an NUnit suite that checks for 'approvals' at various points along the sign-off chain. When you're ready to move from Dev to Staging or Staging to Prod, have the tests check for the necessary approval files (by name or content, whatever). Integrate the process RIGHT IN THE CODE! He didn't like that idea and thought it was better done manually. Any automation is better than no automation, IMHO. http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment1http://ayende.com/3587/build-the-tools-that-arent-there#comment1Mon, 08 Sep 2008 03:25:41 GMT