http://ayende.comAyende @ RahienCopyright (C) Ayende Rahien 2004 - 2021 (c) 202660Jay, Local DB cache? Haven't looked at the link, but that is fairly common when you are talking about distributed architecture. Making remote calls is expensive, and this can reduce them significantly.http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment43http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment43Mon, 15 Aug 2011 01:16:03 GMTDoes this mean I also should look at guidance based on similar N-tier stuff? e.g. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb882690.aspx is "Walkthrough: Adding a Local Database Cache to an N-Tier Application" and "Local Database Cache" sounds interesting and I'm not sure of a great way to do it myself. http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment42http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment42Tue, 09 Aug 2011 15:09:54 GMTAnd to continue in the same vein - I'm surprised by people asking for a review of version 2.0. Those code reviews take time to do, perhaps Ayende has better things to do than offer free consultancy to MS.http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment41http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment41Mon, 25 Jul 2011 09:02:40 GMTI'm surprised that no-one here has thanked Ayende for taking the time to do these reviews (though it has been done in previous posts.) Particularly @Marta: the Microsoft guys got a free code review from someone who obviously knows more than they do. What's there to complain about? So what if you don't like the tone it's written in - there's still a lot of constructive criticism there.http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment40http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment40Mon, 25 Jul 2011 08:50:36 GMT@M I really wonder nopcommerce code review :) http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment39http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment39Sun, 24 Jul 2011 21:02:01 GMTIt can be argued that the value in such a classroom project is negligible. Have you thought of reviewing software currently in use. For example NopCommerce - http://nopcommerce.codeplex.com/http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment38http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment38Sun, 24 Jul 2011 11:29:42 GMTThat last paragraph should read: Finally, with respect to your last comment, saying Ayende just doesn't like this code because he didn't write it.http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment37http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment37Sat, 23 Jul 2011 18:59:05 GMT@Marta, Please stop, you're embarrassing yourself. Considering that Microsoft Spain has completely re-written the app and have admitted themselves that v1.0 was substandard, I'm not sure where you are going with any of your comments. They put out a horrible, horrible guidance, one that will be causing problems for years to come since v1 had thousands of downloads and has likely been copied into hundreds of code bases already. When it comes from the mothership (or the mothership's branch in Spain) it is treated as gospel, NOT as a collaborative project. How it is that people can't see this is beyond me. Finally, with respect to your last comment, saying Ayende just don't like this code. Are you saying that the code in v1 was good? If so, you're invalidated any opinion you have on the subject. Microsoft Spain has admitted the code sucked, why can't you?http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment36http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment36Sat, 23 Jul 2011 18:57:28 GMT@Alex There is an other class of people: who doesn't seem to like any code they didn't write! ...pls down from the throne where you're located and make a constructive criticism without arrogance! For me that's all. See you.http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment35http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment35Sat, 23 Jul 2011 07:56:28 GMTJust a short note to all the naysayers out there, if you don't like this project and guidance either don't use, contribute to it, or make your own project to enlighten us all. Too many people in the world today would rather sit around and criticize others than stepping up and making a change to better what they think is wrong. At least these folks are trying to help the community regardless of whether you view that are correct or not. I have read Ayende blog for a while now and view him to be very intelligent and knowledgeable about these topics but that's not reason to bash others projects because of that. I like when he does point out a better way to do something as that is helpful for everyone. Even the people on the other project are encouraging that but for all of you commenters on here who are just bashing it because you’re jumping on the proverbial bandwagon; let's see you help the community out doing something the "right" way then. I personally can't wait till the Macto team either completes their project or gets more into it so we can compare that project with the other projects out there. That to me will be the ultimate learning tool. Just to be able to see the differences in the two projects, what one does better than the other, what one didn’t think of that the other did. It’s a lot like the swarm of books out there covering the exact same target. They all do something a little different. One book might encourage the author of another book to enhance the flaws they saw in a different book. All in all, evolution is a beautiful thing and if you can’t contribute anything to it besides a bunch of negative comments. Then move on! I want to spend time reading and learning informative material that I find on Ayende’s site as well as the N-Layer projects site. Thanks, Have a good day http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment34http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment34Fri, 22 Jul 2011 21:39:55 GMT@Marta This is what's written on the web-site: "Following these guidelines offers important benefits regarding quality, stability, and especially, an improvement of future maintenance of the application"http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment33http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment33Fri, 22 Jul 2011 20:40:03 GMT@Marta Apparently words 'official guidance' have different meanings in our languages. “There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.”http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment32http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment32Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:02:45 GMT@ Alex Sure, it is a Diktat! ...on the project's homepage we can read: "We'll be happy hearing from you and getting your feed-back to improve and evolve this Architectural example!!". Yes Alex, sounds like a diktat, I'm terrified! Pleaseeeee. Be honest!http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment31http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment31Fri, 22 Jul 2011 18:15:52 GMT@Ayende I've been following the blog for years and really appreciate the insight I've gained from your code reviews etc. I've worked with C# and Java, and have to say, in my work experience, MS developers[the ones i worked with], rely on MS to provide 'guidance' and if it's not 'blessed' by MS, then it's questionable. Whilst, I didn't find that with the Java developers[that I worked with], there was more 'community' effort in figuring out 'best practices' and not relying on Sun/Oracle. So I definitely appreciate you pointing out the misguidance and hopefully some will drink a little less MS Kool-Aid. :)http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment30http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment30Fri, 22 Jul 2011 16:28:25 GMT@Marta You didn't get it. It is not open source project asking for contributions, it is "diktat" from Microsoft on how we MUST use their technologies.http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment29http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment29Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:32:39 GMT@Alex It's not a diktat! We live in a time of sharing! The project is on CodePlex, if you want to help the community, you can contribute in a constructive way! The arrogance is not the right way!http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment28http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment28Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:27:43 GMT@Marta When you write a guidance, you supposed to already know where you are going to guide your followers. You can ask "is it clear what I am sayng", not "is it correct". So, it was arrogance on the side of the guidance team to consider their work to be a guidance for others.http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment27http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment27Thu, 21 Jul 2011 05:43:37 GMTPlease see @Cesar comment in this post!!! QED: humility (Cesar) vs arrogance (Ayende)! IMHO http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment25http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment25Thu, 21 Jul 2011 04:16:11 GMTAyende, you should publish at least one final post, where you clearly state that your reviews were for V1 of the sample project. Of course a (quick) review of V2 would be even better ;-)http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment24http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment24Thu, 21 Jul 2011 03:55:00 GMTFor me, I've been compiling the review and I am going to read the code base precisely as a "What not to do" so I can improve my skills and pay attention to detail.http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment23http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment23Thu, 21 Jul 2011 03:13:23 GMTAyende, you should do stand up comedy. Whenever I look at dodgy code, I've just got you in my head telling me how this code would give you a headache. http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment22http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment22Thu, 21 Jul 2011 02:43:22 GMTSo we know for now what we should't look at, and what about good codebase?http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment21http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment21Wed, 20 Jul 2011 23:14:16 GMT@Roland ...Totally agree! Ayende be constructive and a little bit less "spocchioso" (haughty, conceited)!http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment20http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment20Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:24:00 GMT@Ayende, I mean now the v2 has been released, your review on v1 is, say, fair and honest with an emphasis on negative aspects. As Cesar wrote: "all the issues were fixed in V2.0 before Ayende published his series." It would be also fair to take into account how the stuff has evolved. To me it would be interesting to review how the v2 has evolved from v1 based on limitations and mistakes you and the community point out. Sure it would be an in-depth series, but it would provide a truckload of knowledge to everybody. http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment19http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment19Wed, 20 Jul 2011 21:42:18 GMTWould be interesting to see you follow up with a review of the V2 too. I enjoyed reading it because it highlighted some points i wasnt aware of. Thanks for that. Having a second opinion is a good thing. I dont really think you were too harsh, only honest, and i like honest.http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment18http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment18Wed, 20 Jul 2011 21:21:47 GMT@Gabriel - I wasn't "trolling around" trying to defend this sample at all. I was pointing out that a sample with so many problems having no negative reviews seems suspicious. I don't think it's very ethical to suppress negative reviews of one's work, if that's what's going on.http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment17http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment17Wed, 20 Jul 2011 20:57:00 GMTRoland, When I wrote those reviews, there wasn't a V2.http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment16http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment16Wed, 20 Jul 2011 20:55:04 GMTThe review was interesting, but harsch as well. I read Cesar de la Tore's blog entry he mentionned above. There is a second version of the app already published. Ayende is a giant in the .net world and his comment can be devastating (i.e music store). The same applies here: now the v2 has been released fixing many critical issues, what's the point of being so harsh? http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment15http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment15Wed, 20 Jul 2011 20:15:07 GMT@Paul - Re. "They have some of the best developers in the world, and see more real-world applications built on .NET than any other company" - I would not assume anything like that. The following post might shake your world: http://rethrick.com/#waving-goodbye Real-world ignorance from various established dev teams and academia too isn't a new problem, but apparently now it has more severe effects...http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment14http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment14Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:30:46 GMTHi all, This is Cesar de la Torre, from Microsoft. I'd like to highlight that we've been taking into account every post that Ayende has been publishing about our initiative. You can read my post about it at my blog: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/cesardelatorre/archive/2011/07/21/about-ayende-s-blog-posts-series-reviewing-the-nlayered-sample-app.aspx We'd be thankful to any constructive feedback you can provide. You can provide specific feedback directly to me: 'cesardl at microsoft.com' Best regards, Cesar http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment13http://ayende.com/35841/review-microsoft-n-layer-app-sample-part-x-architecture-for-the-space-age#comment13Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:26:45 GMT