Ayende @ Rahien

ian Cooper commented on Internals are Evil

Mon, 07 Apr 2008 11:44:53 GMT

I talk about LINQ, repositories and TDD a fair amount here: http://codebetter.com/blogs/ian_cooper/archive/2008/02/17/architecting-linq-to-sql-applications-part-5.aspx and an older version here: http://iancooper.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns%21844BD2811F9ABE9C%21397.entry In case that helps you find what you need

Jon Skeet commented on Internals are Evil

Fri, 04 Apr 2008 08:40:58 GMT

Another vote for "easily discoverable" here - if you've got a using directive for System.Linq, it just comes up as one of the extension methods you can call with Intellisense. It also comes up in local MSDN if you look at the members of IEnumerable or any of the implementations. As for the ToQueryable vs AsQueryable debate - there's an interesting bit of consistency here which I personally missed until I read about it in LINQ in Action: The "AsXXX" methods represent the same data source as a different type, but it's still a data source with deferred execution. The "ToXXX" methods create an instance of XXX from the given data source immediately - they don't defer execution. So AsQueryable is the appropriate name here. Much as I'm always reluctant to disagree with smarter people, I have to say I have no problem with internal classes. If MS had to make all classes in the framework public then: a) Discoverability would go *down* rather than up due to the extra volume of classes which largely aren't useful. b) They'd have a lot more work to do in order to implement the same features - meaning that there'd be less released, or it would be at a worse quality. c) They'd be much more limited in terms of changing the implementation design (if you see what I mean) later on. The more you expose, the more you get locked into that design.

Ayende Rahien commented on Internals are Evil

Fri, 04 Apr 2008 01:16:28 GMT

Andrey, I entered my house today through the window

Andrey Shchekin commented on Internals are Evil

Thu, 03 Apr 2008 23:38:05 GMT

> It is not discoverable at all, however. For me it was discoverable in the same way new Max or Min were discoverable -- the new Enumerable is the first place where I check when I want to do something with IEnumerable. However, I understand that discoverability is not objective. > And I don't see how new EnumerableQuery is uglier, or how this relates to the discussion This is a longer way to write the same thing (it requires a type unless you wrap it in the method). More importantly, it would teach all people who look at your code to use this complex solution. This is similar to entering through the window -- it is possible, is it better? As for discussion, by default I see internals as an indication of "there is a better way". Of course, it requires me to believe that "select isn't broken" -- that internals in Framework are hidden on purpose. It is harder to believe that after things like SqlCommandSet and ASP.NET insides, but I still try to figure out how to do things in a way framework authors intended.

Ayende Rahien commented on Internals are Evil

Thu, 03 Apr 2008 23:15:08 GMT

It is not discoverable at all, however. And I don't see how new EnumerableQuery is uglier, or how this relates to the discussion

Andrey Shchekin commented on Internals are Evil

Thu, 03 Apr 2008 18:20:08 GMT

> Yes, AsQueryable would work. Except that I didn't know about it, and going the simple path, of walking the inheritance chain only revealed EnumerableQuery. Hm. I remember making a following point: "There are a lot of cases when using some lower-level code for functionality that is already provided by the higher-level one is more complex, more problematic, and can lead to code duplication. Now, the perfect developer instantly knows what classes/methods to use for his specific task. The real developers I worked with often choose what they found first, just because when they invent the way to use it, they stop searching." To which you answered: "I am not really concerned about scaring develpers. ... I recognize the need for private classes, by all mean encapsulate using that. But internal is evil in frameworks" Seems my point demonstrated itself, since new EnumerableQuery(list) is much uglier than list.AsQueryable. And this is one of the reasons the alternative way was made internal -- to make choice simpler.

Jarod commented on Internals are Evil

Thu, 03 Apr 2008 16:28:33 GMT

@Ayende Ya, extension methods do not show. I use the object browser, make sure I am browsing only 3.5 and set the filter to 'Show Extension Members'. When a type is selected, you will see an Extension Members folder which contains them. Heres a quick post with a visual if anyone is interested http://elegantcode.com/2008/04/03/exploring-extension-methods-in-net-35/ @Nick I agree, ToQueryable would have been a natural choice :)

Nathan commented on Internals are Evil

Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:22:08 GMT

This is a good article about how to use UnitOfWork concepts with Linq to Sql. http://iancooper.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!844BD2811F9ABE9C!397.entry The ITable interface is much like IRepository but you use Linq expressions instead of Criteria or HQL and it's very easy to implement.

Tuna Toksoz commented on Internals are Evil

Thu, 03 Apr 2008 11:32:37 GMT

@Andreas It would be hard to implement IOrderedQueryable since it requires you to explicit implement(private) #region IEnumerable Members System.Collections.IEnumerator System.Collections.IEnumerable.GetEnumerator() { throw new NotImplementedException(); } #endregion this would make windsor throw error, unfortunately.

Ayende Rahien commented on Internals are Evil

Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:34:00 GMT

Jarod, Yes, AsQueryable would work. Except that I didn't know about it, and going the simple path, of walking the inheritance chain only revealed EnumerableQuery. Since it is directly used in AsQueryable, I don't know why this is not a public type.

Benny Thomas commented on Internals are Evil

Thu, 03 Apr 2008 08:13:12 GMT

I feel this is somewhat the problem with the CLR enviroment. You think that this feature isnt there or not available, but it's only hidden straight infront of you so you want find it until is to late.

Tuna Toksoz commented on Internals are Evil

Thu, 03 Apr 2008 07:27:31 GMT

or do would you have another method returning IOrderedQueryable such as IOrderedQueryable Linq();

Andreas commented on Internals are Evil

Thu, 03 Apr 2008 06:42:54 GMT

How would a linq:ified version of your IRepository look like? Do you let IRepository implement IOrderedQueryable so you can do stuff like: IRepository customerRepository ..... var q =from c in customerRepository where c.City == "London" orderby c.CustomerID select c;

Nick commented on Internals are Evil

Thu, 03 Apr 2008 05:56:30 GMT

Haha :) got me too: http://ubik.com.au/article/named/mocking_iqueryable I think the problem is that we naturally look for .ToQueryable() - I still find myself confused!

alwin commented on Internals are Evil

Thu, 03 Apr 2008 02:41:26 GMT

ah Jarod beat me to it :)

alwin commented on Internals are Evil

Thu, 03 Apr 2008 02:40:35 GMT

Doesn't this work? http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb507003.aspx The following code example demonstrates how to use AsQueryable<(Of <(TElement>)>)(IEnumerable<(Of <(TElement>)>)) to convert an IEnumerable<(Of <(T>)>) to an IQueryable<(Of <(T>)>). List grades = new List { 78, 92, 100, 37, 81 }; // Convert the List to an IQueryable. IQueryable iqueryable = grades.AsQueryable(); // Get the Expression property of the IQueryable object. System.Linq.Expressions.Expression expressionTree = iqueryable.Expression;

Jarod commented on Internals are Evil

Thu, 03 Apr 2008 02:25:06 GMT

Thats pretty cool stuff... maybe I am missing something here, but wouldnt AsQueryable work for this?