http://ayende.comAyende @ RahienCopyright (C) Ayende Rahien 2004 - 2021 (c) 202660Oren, you have to trust people a little bit more :) http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment13http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment13Fri, 22 Feb 2008 13:48:11 GMT>>The other problem is that London is so diverse in culture,<<< Well that works against London and for it ... not for the reasons I think you mentioned though .... In many other countries it is easy to see who 'doesnt belong there' ... in London we have one of the most diverse communities in the world .. we have every race and every religion, .... so you can't just shut a certain set of people out and put up some walls. However it is that diversity that makes London such a wonderful place, and that is the only way to end hatred on bace of race or religion - learn to understand each other and live together. http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment12http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment12Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:11:28 GMTThe other problem is that London is so diverse in culture, everyone is terrified of offending everyone else. Its political correctness gone mad. A security guard from one ethnic culture could never ask a person from another ethnic culture to remove head scarfs or veils, in fear of causing international outrage, provoking streets marches and burning of effigies. http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment11http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment11Fri, 22 Feb 2008 11:25:49 GMTWell in London ... you have to remember us Londoners have been dealing with terrorism for a VERY long time ... we had the IRA for decades bombing London on a regular basis ... I was within 1 mile of one of the largest bombs, and was 5 minutes outside of Victoria station when the bomb went off there. We are pragmatic, we understand that if a terrorist *really* wants to kill someone they will - and in London there is *nothing* you can do to stop it - regardless of what politicians say ... all of their laws protect nobody, and do create fear in all. So we carried on every day when the IRA bombed us ... and we will carry on if anyone else does too. The only thing terrorists want to achieve is to change your way of life - at the point you give in and change your laws to match their threats, you have lost and they have won. http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment10http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment10Fri, 22 Feb 2008 11:03:49 GMTFirst of all, the British police openly admitted that al-Qaida type terrorist attacks in London were inevitable long before the 7/7 bombings (i.e. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/mar/16/terrorism.september11). Once they have accepted that you cannot avoid that kind of risk, it is a matter of risk management. - What you can do to minimize the losses when the threat will happen? - What actions you can take to proactively minimize the risk? - What are the actions which are more likely to be efficiently succesfully achieved? Evidently, the British government think that the level of security after the airport checkin is worthy the hassle, while others places and areas are not. As a side note, first time in Istanbul I was shocked by the guard and the metal detectors in every mall and in every major public and private office. All of this in a city with a very congested transport system, where some terrorists could wreack real havoc just targeting the main traffic bottlenecks (the bridges, 3 or 4 bus station, the huge international bus station). http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment9http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment9Fri, 22 Feb 2008 10:00:42 GMTAndy, No argument there. It just sturk me as very very odd, that difference between the two modes. http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment8http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment8Fri, 22 Feb 2008 09:56:45 GMTI just went through Ben Gurion (Israel's main air port). I had to go through; Check at the road before entering, check when entering the actual building, check for the luggage before I could get a ticket, additional check fr hand bag and what I was currently carrying. As for the effectiveness of those measures... I agree that most guards aren't the ones that I would chose, given a choice. Since there isn't any, they are better than nothing. They have a significant deterrance effect, and they do go throught at least a minimal ammount of training and briefing. Beside, we both can recall more than a single case where a guard has prevented a bombing, several times at the cost to his life. As for going with a gun, where you in Uniforms? I know that when I was at Uniforms and traveled with the rifle, I had to show ID just about anywhere. Then again, maybe I look more suspicious than you http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment7http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment7Fri, 22 Feb 2008 09:51:45 GMTThe use of trash cans as a mean to hide bombs went out of terrorist fashion in the mid 90s. That is hardly a security measure. As an aside, I might have not noticed that, but I found a lot of opaque trash cans all around in London http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment6http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment6Fri, 22 Feb 2008 09:42:22 GMTOren, I think the whole reason you have security at every corner is because your country suffers terrorism on a weekly basis. And I pray that never comes to my home town London. We had our fair share of local terrorism in the 70's, 80's. The reason there's no trashcans in stations is because of the IRA. They're also the reason why the 'ring of steel' was invented. (That still exists today, in the square mile) The day we start suffering from daily bombings, will be the day we start needing security on every corner. Until that happens, Londoners have more of a problem with chavs than worrying about middle eastern fundamentalism! http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment5http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment5Fri, 22 Feb 2008 09:28:58 GMTI totally disagree with you. It's true that in Israel you get a guard in every mall entry. But the so called 'guards' has no training in counter-terrorism, no knowledge of how to identify threats, and actually no use, but a l slight discouraging affect that would not influence a stupid suicide bomber. Al they do is to have a quick look at your bag, sometimes in your bag, and unless they spot a Tom-and-Jerry-Alarm-Clock-With-Dynamite-Sticks they won't do anything. During the time I served at the army I was carrying a hand-gun with me everywhere, not concealed, just shoved in the external holster dangling to the side of my trousers. Almost never I've been asked to show a license. Now in London (a city with a long terrorism history as well) you have cctv everywhere, with trained people monitoring any suspicious move, and although I'd say that Al-Quida is much more into hitting London that hitting Tel-Aviv, the number of successful terr. acts is way lower. So Im not too sure that they should learn from the Israelis about that. As for Airport Security - that's about preventing two things: a. kidnapping airplanes for hostages b. kidnapping airplanes for kamikazze acts. both are well guarded against in the model implemented on most airports. http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment4http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment4Fri, 22 Feb 2008 08:16:40 GMTI agree with the other steve. You cant find public trashcans in most of the places. It was odd enough that there wasn't a security check in Wallmart's and other mall's in the USA. I asked them if you have in Europe, they told me that they didn't at all. http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment3http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment3Fri, 22 Feb 2008 06:26:55 GMTAhh, but did you notice there are very few public trashcans? And none in the subways? The ones in the park are wire baskets that you can see through. Perhaps coming from Israel, that won't strike you as odd, but when I went to Britain in 2000 it was quite a shock. http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment2http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment2Fri, 22 Feb 2008 05:02:15 GMTI don't know if you follow Bruce Schneier but he as some excellent posts and articles about security and in particular in relation to airports. Just recently he raised exactly the issue you've mentioned, but his take seems to be that for countries like the UK and US it's probably not really necessary to have that level of security because the cost (both financial and in terms of personal liberty) is too high compared to the benefits gained. You can find his blog here: http://www.schneier.com/blog/ http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment1http://ayende.com/3157/on-security-from-the-physical-perspective#comment1Thu, 21 Feb 2008 23:14:19 GMT