Ayende @ Rahien

Colin Jack commented on Dependency Injection: More than a testing seam

Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:21:22 GMT

@Deyan Petrov - Agree completely, I've tried the interface based approach in those situations to allow me to get in with Rhino Mocks and it was a mess. If they are needed then great.

Colin Jack commented on Dependency Injection: More than a testing seam

Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:17:13 GMT

I agree completely with Mats comments but I would go further by saying that even within a single application different parts of the system can use different approaches. For example if my business code calls out to my data access (repositories), which I tend to avoid, then I want it to be to an abstraction. However when I'm using the business classes from a higher layer I'm not so worried about accessing them through interfaces unless those interfaces are designed specifically for that sort of usage (ISP). In either case I'm choosing the approach that I think is most suitable, not blindly going down the DI or TypeMock approach simply because on is "better".

Mats Helander commented on Dependency Injection: More than a testing seam

Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:01:01 GMT

When writing an application, you may well be able to analyze in advance to see where you need pluggability points and provide interfaces there. Adding interfaces where you don't anticipate any use for them would of course be a violation of YAGNI. But when writing frameworks, YAGNI does not apply to the same extent. There is much less opportunity for knowing in advance where users may need pluggabilty points. So when writing frameworks, you should provide interfaces for pretty much every class. The reason for this is so that your framework code binds to the interfaces rather than to default implementations, allowing users to substitute implementations of any parts of the framework. This means that in a framework, you'll have lots of cases where there's only one implementation of an interface. The only thing that means is that the framework only provides one default implementation of that interface - just because the framework doesn't supply the alternative implementations doesn't mean that it can go without the interface, following some rule of thumb that "an interface with just one implementation (from the same provider!) is a waste of time". The reasons why you want your framework code to bind to interfaces rather than abstract base classes are that: 1) .NET only allows single implementation inheritance - you don't want to have to waste your base class on type compatibility! 2) The base class may not be pluggable enough, for example sealing something that the user would need to extend or replace. So, adding interfaces all over the place may be a bad idea for the application programmer, but an excellent idea for the framework developer (such as the .NET framework developers). /Mats

Markus Zywitza commented on Dependency Injection: More than a testing seam

Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:01:39 GMT

DI/IoC is only for TDD/Mocking and AOP is only for logging and tracing and BTW, the world is flat... IoC is perfectly for decoupling parts of your applications and allowing a local "service"-structure. Interfaces are part of the game in .NET and Java, but the pattern also applies to Python or Ruby, which should be your languages of choice if you dislike interfaces. An example that has to nothing with testing, is changing implementations on run-by-run-basis. I.e., if network's available, use a component to lookup contact data from the companies LDAP, if not, use locally cached data. Neither part of the "real" application need to know how the data is fetched, only the container setup. You might call that IServiceProvider, I call it IoC. -Markus

Deyan Petrov commented on Dependency Injection: More than a testing seam

Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:31:30 GMT

I tend to disagree with using interfaces all over the place, just for the sake of easier mocking & testing. If the business application really needs an extensibility point at a certain place, then interface is the way to go. But to put all over interfaces without a real need and only because of unit testing seems like allowing unit testing to "distort" your domain model... This is, of course, only philosophically speaking, technically speaking it's questionable what is the smaller evil - adding interfaces all over the place or making all methods virtual (I hate that virtual is not default in .NET) which is also a kind of manipulation related to easier unit testing ... Interfaces should always be used, if the domain model really needs them, that's for sure.

Dan commented on Dependency Injection: More than a testing seam

Mon, 20 Aug 2007 06:13:28 GMT

I started using Windsor before I even heard of TDD actually, even when I don't use an container I still code with DI in mind, it makes the code easier to work with. @Andrey, DRY does not disallow using interfaces, if it did then all of C++ would be in violation of DRY. It even allows duplicates of the code, as long as only one of them is the "authoritative representation", although thats generally better to avoid if possible. And neither in VB nor C# will you have to retype the implementation, the IDE can expand it for you. Although interfaces aren't the only way of doing it, abstract base classes or virtual methods works quite well too for enabling testing (case dependent, of course).

Neal Blomfield commented on Dependency Injection: More than a testing seam

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 20:40:49 GMT

While I can see the benefits of DI and the architecture that it enforces, I have yet to "feel the love" from a system architected this way due to the learning curve and associated costs (doing business with a blunt saw anyone?). I think this may be the reason a lot of people do not see the benefit of some of these approaches to building an application, without being able to grok the whole picture in your head, the only real way to see this is better is to live through the pain of changing a DI-less system and then live through the joy of changing a DI based system. Sometimes knowledge (in the form of lessons learned from your mistakes) >> wisdom (lessons learned from other peoples mistakes).

Frans Bouma commented on Dependency Injection: More than a testing seam

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 09:43:15 GMT

DI can be used in a lot of different scenario's, completely unrelated to TDD. For example: pluggable validation objects, authorization objects etc. in entities. You can inject them with DI for example, so you can write the app once and for example via configuration inject the right authorization code or validation code written in different projects than the main system. This is abit like AOP but you don't have to use a weaver, just inject the code at runtime and you're set. :) Furthermore, DI shouldn't be overused, as in: property setting with value types via DI, I'm not sure if that's really useful. It can be a handy tool which could make writing the application more easier because you don't have to hard-code certain code inside another class for example.

Andrey Shchekin commented on Dependency Injection: More than a testing seam

Sat, 18 Aug 2007 19:46:09 GMT

Personally I think that DI is a great thing and I like to use it. But the main problem with the current (w/o TypeMock) TDD/DI approach is, for me, interface-driven architecture. I like DRY and I do not like to repeat my method definitions over and over again. Also, interfaces make APIs less understandable. While I can get object interactions by looking at interfaces, more common problem with new APIs is "this method wants type X, what should I pass?". When the type is IX, it gets harder since, for example, I have no constructor. As for me, interface that has a single implementor is a useless waste of code lines. I like that this is rarely the case with .Net Framework. While I see no other way to work around technical limitations of mocking concrete classes (except TypeMock), I still view it as a bloated architecture and a (required) hack.

Oran commented on Dependency Injection: More than a testing seam

Sat, 18 Aug 2007 19:17:19 GMT

"I wish Ayende would admit that the only advantage to DI in his examples is to allow the mock objects to work, is all. There is no other compelling reason." I think Ayende has a number of great examples of DI being used for more than just mock objects. See his article here for a very comprehensive explanation of what's possible: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa973811.aspx