http://ayende.comAyende @ RahienCopyright (C) Ayende Rahien 2004 - 2021 (c) 202660Okay, so maybe I shouldn't post at 2am my time, since '*reeks*' wasn't the best choice of words. Let me put it a slightly different way. If you look at the non-Microsoft established OSS world (Linux kernel, Apache, Open Office, etc.), it certainly is about competition. What is *bad* about saying that what Ayende and others are doing is providing competition? Though I didn't state it clearly, I don't think there is anything bad about Jeremey Miller's string of posts, Ayende's Hibernating Rhinos series, etc. And if they provide something better than what MS does in their versions, isn't that good? Whatever I personally think of Monorail or NHibernate or nUnit or any other OSS project, isn't good software worthy of its own development? On a related topic, why any need to justify working on OSS in the .NET space? Building community, it scratches an itch, it makes good software....is there something about Microsoft's slowly changing antipathy to OSS that makes it important to say "Hey, it's okay to do .NET OSS"? Although, I will add that I don't see any reason why Microsoft has any obligation to support .NET OSS. But that's a larger topic. http://ayende.com/2638/it-is-not-a-competition-oss-microsoft#comment8http://ayende.com/2638/it-is-not-a-competition-oss-microsoft#comment8Wed, 18 Jul 2007 22:18:13 GMTjdn, have to disagree ... what Ayende and Anders did was not to take the piss out of MS, and I never saw them trying to do that. What they both showed is that with a little bit of thought and good design you could simplify a specific scenario, and produce a workable framework with less time and code. Neither Anders nor Ayende would claim heir efforts even come close to the full functionality that the MS version provide, but what they did do was demonstrate how to refine the MS product into something that better fitted with their world view - notbaly that if you are going to provide sucha product then the source should be open and visible to allow it to be adapted and evolved. All very healthy. http://ayende.com/2638/it-is-not-a-competition-oss-microsoft#comment7http://ayende.com/2638/it-is-not-a-competition-oss-microsoft#comment7Wed, 18 Jul 2007 06:30:40 GMTAyende, I will argue vociferously with you on this point. .NET OSS developers *can't* have it both ways. They can't complain about Microsoft 'reinventing the wheel' and not make it about a competition. It is the same thing, when it boils down to it. What is the complaint otherwise? That Microsoft shouldn't come out with something that mirrors OSS efforts unless it is 10 times better? 10 times better according to whom? You? The OSS police? And directly to your comment: what person said that Jasper was "some great & heroic thing"? Who said this? When? Where? You are much better read than I am, so I'm sure you can find a link that said that, but it is exactly the sort of comment that makes it very much ' a competition.' Your own and Jeremy Miller's own blogs about 'building a better CAB in an hour' *reek* of 'it is a competition.' I do not doubt that you do not intend it to come across that way, but it certainly does, in spades, and I don't see how you could think otherwise. http://ayende.com/2638/it-is-not-a-competition-oss-microsoft#comment6http://ayende.com/2638/it-is-not-a-competition-oss-microsoft#comment6Wed, 18 Jul 2007 06:05:23 GMTjdn, Can you point me to serious OSS developers that have this opinion? I can't recall off-hand anyone whose motivation is solely to show MS how they can do better. The issues that are raised when MS is putting out something that compete with OSS stuff has been spoke on before, but basically it boils down reinventing the wheel, and not providing basic functionality. That is completely different than the issue brought with that comment http://ayende.com/2638/it-is-not-a-competition-oss-microsoft#comment5http://ayende.com/2638/it-is-not-a-competition-oss-microsoft#comment5Wed, 18 Jul 2007 05:47:51 GMTPerhaps not you, but a *vast* majority of the .NET OSS community seems to think of it as a competition. Look at all the bitching when Microsoft decides to create a 'competing' product with some open source effort. If an OSS project has value, then it will prove it in the marketplace. If they die because Microsoft produces something vaguely similar, it didn't have much value. For instance, NHibernate will 'survive' LINQ. Other projects won't survive. There's a lesson there. http://ayende.com/2638/it-is-not-a-competition-oss-microsoft#comment4http://ayende.com/2638/it-is-not-a-competition-oss-microsoft#comment4Wed, 18 Jul 2007 04:28:39 GMTWe "take the piss" out of people here in the UK too. It's a harmless term when meaning to mock something or someone. Perhaps you should rename "Rhino Mocks" to "Rhino Taking the Piss"? ;) It can, however, be used aggressively, for example: "You're taking the piss!" ...meaning... "You have gone too far and I am not happy!" http://ayende.com/2638/it-is-not-a-competition-oss-microsoft#comment3http://ayende.com/2638/it-is-not-a-competition-oss-microsoft#comment3Tue, 17 Jul 2007 21:30:01 GMTI second this. When I first read the comment I didn't regard it as very offensive, but when I reread it I realized it was. It was fun to write the Mean Fiddler, and even if the explanation for the choice of name might seem a little cocky, my motivation was exactly the same as yours. I had no intentions of making it into a real framework, but it is heartwarming to see that Derrick has chosen to turn the Mean Fiddler into a real project. Even if it might appear to be competing with Astoria, it uses different means to achieve its capabilities and is more an alternative than a show off thing. http://ayende.com/2638/it-is-not-a-competition-oss-microsoft#comment2http://ayende.com/2638/it-is-not-a-competition-oss-microsoft#comment2Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:39:06 GMT"Taking the piss" is Australian and NZ slang for making fun of http://ayende.com/2638/it-is-not-a-competition-oss-microsoft#comment1http://ayende.com/2638/it-is-not-a-competition-oss-microsoft#comment1Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:15:43 GMT