http://ayende.comAyende @ RahienCopyright (C) Ayende Rahien 2004 - 2021 (c) 202660LOL! Let's just start with this quote of Sam's: "Frankly, I am personally tired of hearing all the things you can build in an 1/2 hour Ayende. Why do you constantly have to show how smart you are or your worth?" This, from the guy that introduces himself to total strangers as "Hi, I'm Sam Gentile. I'm an MVP." I'm not even gonna *touch* the arguments at hand, as I'm sure that both Sam and Ayende are beyond me in "leet skillz" but... Then, we got comments from Frans Bouma? OMG. The things I've seen him post in the past... Wasn't he the guy calling Scott Guthrie ignorant when he endorsed stored procedures? Maybe my memory if failing me... Anyway, I figure all we need now is for Robert McLaws to post and have everyone attack him and this post will be complete. http://ayende.com/2436/sam-gentile-is-angry-with-me#comment8http://ayende.com/2436/sam-gentile-is-angry-with-me#comment8Tue, 29 May 2007 11:48:39 GMT[I don't like personal attack in response for a technological discussion, and I really wish that the discussion would not stoop to that.] ^^^^ hahahahah you just defined one of the fundamental reasons I dont maintain a blog. how does that fench saying go? to be happy, be hidden or something like that... certainly not an american saying but Im not very american anyways ;) dont get me wrong I appreciate all of the information you share, but these kinds of things happen when a) you are high profile b)youve got strong opinions both you and sam fall under the above properties. http://ayende.com/2436/sam-gentile-is-angry-with-me#comment7http://ayende.com/2436/sam-gentile-is-angry-with-me#comment7Sat, 26 May 2007 17:04:46 GMTSam, My previous posting talked about the EntLib in particular, and the CAB was mentioned in mostly passing. http://ayende.com/2436/sam-gentile-is-angry-with-me#comment6http://ayende.com/2436/sam-gentile-is-angry-with-me#comment6Sat, 26 May 2007 16:47:22 GMTI notice you keep saying EntLib when I never mentioned EntLib once. Are you unable to stay on point? http://ayende.com/2436/sam-gentile-is-angry-with-me#comment5http://ayende.com/2436/sam-gentile-is-angry-with-me#comment5Sat, 26 May 2007 16:29:57 GMTSam, Still, the post did sound to me like you were personally offended. If you don't like someone's posting style or way the person formulates arguments ("I could do this in 24hours")... so be it, but in the end the only thing which matters is the pack of arguments used to make a point, not the packaging of the arguments. When I look some parts of the entlib, I really don't see easy to use software. That may be my interpretation but that's how I see it. I then can understand if someone steps up a soapbox and says "This is overengineered crap!" and adding to that a remark that what MATTERS in the particular part can be written in much smaller set of classes. OF COURSE that person thinks he's right. You also think you're right when you post something and, shocking, I'm also convinced I'm right when I post something. :) If someone else has a distinct opinion which is orthogonal to the one expressed at the soapbox, it of course implies that different opinion is wrong, at least from the POV of the guy on the soapbox. You fell over ayende's remarks that he could write it in x hours. I always find that remarks about "I can do that much faster and easier and in much less time!" pretty funny and laugh about it. Everyone knows these remarks aren't real, they're IMHO more or less a way to express "It's not hard to do and won't take a lot of time". Though you should ask yourself this: WHY can't a normal developer start with any of the entlib parts and be productive in say, an hour ? Why does it take a LONG time to get skilled up in the various ellements of entlib? It's not as if doing validation etc. is rocket science. http://ayende.com/2436/sam-gentile-is-angry-with-me#comment4http://ayende.com/2436/sam-gentile-is-angry-with-me#comment4Sat, 26 May 2007 14:13:13 GMTFrans, I explained myself in a comment to a later post (there seems to be a multitude of posts) and said my comments were meant to address implications that there was a piece of software that was developed in a vacum that produced a bloated, overengineered piece of software and my post was meant to say that those things were false as it was not developed BDUF and was developed in iterative feedback loops. There is nothing for me to turn around Frans. I didn't take it as a personal inditement of what I did. I would do it again. Just because Ayende doesn't like something doesn't mean that 1) he is right or 2) that anyone else is wrong. As I said in the other post (I hate having to reply 4 places), you look at your schedule and all that busines value, and you look at your teams skillsets. If they don't mtach up with either producing something like a framework or even growing one organically, you look to "buy". Is CAB pefect? no way. Is it overengineered? Probably. But if you look at all the things its doing for you (and you need) in a complex Windows Forms application, I argue that it is not only useful but saves a lot of work. http://ayende.com/2436/sam-gentile-is-angry-with-me#comment3http://ayende.com/2436/sam-gentile-is-angry-with-me#comment3Sat, 26 May 2007 11:13:42 GMTFrans, There are good reasons for using Entlib, same as NHibernate and every framework. To each his own: http://dotmad.blogspot.com/2007/05/caution-this-blog-contains-personal.html http://ayende.com/2436/sam-gentile-is-angry-with-me#comment2http://ayende.com/2436/sam-gentile-is-angry-with-me#comment2Sat, 26 May 2007 10:36:59 GMTI found it sad he took it personal. Don't worry about it, I think he'll turn around. He also did that after he took it personal that some people (among them, myself) said that refactoring was never 'free' (as in beer). It makes the discussion go a different direction it shouldn't have gone into, which is sad, but the fact that there was/is a discussion proofs that you might have a point :). I talked to one of the entlib developers last week, and also told him a couple of the blocks were simply overengineered. He said he did agree with the point that some elements weren't that easy to get into. I never understood why people would use the entlib in the first place, but alas... http://ayende.com/2436/sam-gentile-is-angry-with-me#comment1http://ayende.com/2436/sam-gentile-is-angry-with-me#comment1Sat, 26 May 2007 08:57:38 GMT