Ayende @ Rahien

Billy McCafferty commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Wed, 16 May 2007 21:51:06 GMT

Ayende, I know how much time it takes to put stuff like this together...so thank you very much. It's made for an easy way for me to get the word out about MonoRail around my company. This weekend I'm going to start porting a project I've been working on for 1 1/2 years to MonoRail...I've grown quite weary of the ASP.NET page lifecycle, am frustrated with the extra effort that MVP requires, and am looking forward to a breath of fresh (separation of concerns) air. Thanks again for all your hard work!

pjmt commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Mon, 16 Apr 2007 12:52:21 GMT

Thanks for the second screencast Ayenda, I know you said that this was not supposed to be an introduction to MonoRail, talking as someone who has not seen MonoRail, it was a very good introduction to it! It's given me the spark of curiosity to go check this out further. You did kind of lose me around the point of adding AJAX support, but maybe a second view may clear that up.

henke commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:48:28 GMT

No, I haven't tried that search. Thanks for that. I'm not talking about real world documentation... Not enough for me? Read the comments again; not enough for more than just me. And I'm referring to the site now, not to blogs. Take blogs into account and there's probably enough documentation, which I've found out from the last day's searching. I'm not saying that you should drop everything either and just do this, but rather that more docs (or better linked) docs would be better. "Too bad.": So stop being aggressive (!!!) about me commenting on documentation, eh? Be questioning and approachable instead! Links to blogs and your other 'documentation' on the web from the 'real' docs, would be a great step towards making learning it more accessible to newbies without overusing google :). Give me access to the docs and I'll set the links up! Contribution: all ears: http://forum.castleproject.org/viewtopic.php?p=6721 i.e. I'm trying, but as I said, I still have to learn before I can contribute.

hammett commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Fri, 13 Apr 2007 00:14:07 GMT

The official documentation is just one source of information. Blog posts and articles are others. (Did you try http://www.technorati.com/search/castleproject.org ?) You say "Castle doesnt have real world documentation" First, what hell is a real world documentation? You want a real world sample? I can understand that. But we do have documentation, and AR/MR are the most well documented projects under Castle umbrella. Not enough for you? Too bad. It seems to be for most of people And we do have a good user base. Check how many posts on our forum, check how many subscribers on our list. Castle and especially MR will never be mainstream on .net due to the average .net/MS developer culture. And I dont mind. Like I said, I'm not spending my time in sunny beaches and playing online games. I work, I run a business. If there's not enough screencasts about MR, make one. We're not talking about a commercial product, we're talking about a OSS project that will certainly continue even if I get hit by a bus. Contribution is the key word here.

Henke commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Thu, 12 Apr 2007 17:18:16 GMT

Btw... Just moving half of Eyendes blog to the castle documentation pages would improve it immensely :p.

Henke commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Thu, 12 Apr 2007 17:10:34 GMT

"We already have first class customers using castle for mission critical apps, and finally Castle is about making you more productive while enforcing a good design. It's something to help you, not us. If you dont want to adopt it, I couldnt care less." Indeed; you're very right, hammet. But you're also misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. First of all; I've fallen in love with your microkernel engine + windsor. It's just so great :). I'm thinking of trying out your AOP-engine for cross-cutting concerns. I'm not using ActiveRecord, simply because I'm not fond of the domain objects knowing persistance, but that's no problem as it's so well integrated into NHibernate, if I come across it. I'm also using your transaction management, both Castle.Transactions and the AutomaticTransaction facility together with NHibernateIntegration. So don't assume what I'm not saying. And also, care! Saying "I couldnt care less. " is just a simple way of making yourself sound like an idiot. I think you care about the community: because otherwise why would you even respond and why make it open source. Also, saying so makes people talking to you feel bad, for no good reason. (That's what I truly HATE with internet discussions; people assume the worst) Now, to what you're actually saying and what I'm saying. Me: "before I believe the castle group can expect their view engines and mvc-engine to be adopted by any professional to any larger extent, like in live paid projects." You: "we have a good user base" No you don't as far as I can see; I'm just talking about MonoRail and view engines here. I think MonoRail could _take off_ compared to what you have now if you invested more time in tutorials/samples/whatever you wanna call it. You: "Castle is about making..." Me: I'm not talking about castle, just MonoRail. Me: "before [lalala] be adopted by any professional to any larger extent" You: "We already have first class customers using castle for mission critical apps" So what? I understand that you must have business, from the reasons I explained on top of this post. However, I'm not talking about _your_ business now. I'm talking about professionals all round the world, such as myself, using it in their live projects. Sure you can use the object browser, but you can't seriously expect every user (read: developer) to become acquainted with the inner workings of the mvc-framework, just to produce standard functionality? I find it amusing that in some posts on other blogs, hammet, you comment in the comment-area: "We can't improve the documentation i you don't tell us what part to improve", but then, if anybody says something, you reject it as that person being an idiot and dissing your framework. Look, I'm not, I'm just saying what I'm saying, not more.

Ayende Rahien commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Thu, 12 Apr 2007 04:38:42 GMT

You didn't miss anything, there are different level of customizations. When I took over the generation of the column, I took over all of it, so startCell does not come into play there. I'll probably make a change so that it does work, since it is a fairly common scenario, though.

Anastasios Y. commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Thu, 12 Apr 2007 04:07:30 GMT

Its 4:30 am and I only just finished watching your screencast and all I have to say is welldone and thanks for a great job! I must say that I am totally new to MonoRail and I am quite irritated with the webforms way of doing things - intermingled UI layer with data, business and presentation logic in it, controller in many cases seems to be the Page_Load event and doPostPack, and view state just doesnt seem to be the right way with all that state data going backwards and forth. Just one question: You created a startCell section that adds appropriate styling to TD tags making the text appear bold when IsImportantCustomer evaluates to true. But the link in the customerId section doesnt seem to be bold, or have I missed something? Assuming that the customerId section renders child content in relation to the startCellSection, it should also be bold in your example? Thanks, Anastasios

hammett commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:34:14 GMT

It's not a money issue, it's a time issue. We already have first class customers using castle for mission critical apps, we have a good user base, and finally Castle is about making you more productive while enforcing a good design. It's something to help you, not us. If you dont want to adopt it, I couldnt care less. Users around here are too much used to being spoiled to adopt something. We are not MS, we dont have resources (read idle brains). Ant btw, John. We dont have customers paying us to write "sample code". We're involved in _very_ complex projects. Your perception of Castle Stronghold is just stupid.

Henke commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:33:38 GMT

Great screencast, in that it shows the potential of the framework, but the lack of real-world documentation is scary. I think adding intellisense to the views would be a great step forward. Also, adding better samples and writing those tutorials in the documentation would be needed before I believe the castle group can expect their view engines and mvc-engine to be adopted by any professional to any larger extent, like in live paid projects. If it's a money issue, why not just work a couple of weeks creating these screencasts and uploading them on a web site where you can subscribe to viewing screencasts for a monthly cost?

Srdjan commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Tue, 10 Apr 2007 03:09:48 GMT

Great job. I posted my comments here: http://blog.timok.com

Ayende Rahien commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Mon, 09 Apr 2007 21:40:07 GMT

Thanks is something that depends on the exact scenario, but there are several ways to do it. NAnt task, MSBuild task, etc. In code, this is as simple as: ActiveRecordStarter.CreateSchema();

Marcos commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Mon, 09 Apr 2007 19:39:17 GMT

Ayende, could you explain how do you generate the schema please? Thanks.

Ayende Rahien commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Mon, 09 Apr 2007 17:25:18 GMT

@Marcos, Yes, we generate the schema by looking at the AR entities properties.

Ayende Rahien commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Mon, 09 Apr 2007 17:23:42 GMT

@John, The samples are just that, they are meant to show of the technology, nothing more. It looks like you are searching for a starter kit, which has a different purpose.

Marcos commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Mon, 09 Apr 2007 15:07:05 GMT

@Jose: http://boo.codehaus.org/ http://boo.codehaus.org/BooManifesto.pdf

Jose commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Mon, 09 Apr 2007 14:55:05 GMT

Great screencast Ayende. It would be interesting a screencast about TDD with MR. I started to use (test) MR with NVelocity engine, but Boo seems to be more natural, where can I find doc about basic Boo sintaxys?

Marcos commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Mon, 09 Apr 2007 13:59:13 GMT

@Ayende When I digg into the trunk, the few samples I saw requires a database. No problem, give me schema file and I'll setup a database. Well, for example in the Castle.Forums there is no .sql file. You tell me that sql files comes from ActiveRecord entities, you mean their are generated automatically or just make .sql file looking the entities properties? @john. Yeap, I agree. I'm looking for a realistic, real world example, or at least small samples that focus in one thing. eg: ViewComponents, AR integration, View innerworkings, Controllers, etc. If there is no samples and no good doc. then we have the chicken-egg thing, no one can make (except castle team) sample contributions without expending days trying to figure it out how things works, and that's a pitty because difficults adoption, and I'm not talking about morts here...

JohnLamberson commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Mon, 09 Apr 2007 13:17:09 GMT

Noneof the samples are working or architecting for reuse. The are throw away type of works. In fact, there is no good working application for Monorail around on the Net. The only two decent works I am aware so far is Billing from Nterface and NProject.org but none of these are complete.

Ayende Rahien commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Mon, 09 Apr 2007 12:21:10 GMT

@John, Why do you say that the samples are useless?

JohnLamberson commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Mon, 09 Apr 2007 12:12:09 GMT

Marcos, Great question about CastleStronghold not release any useful samples. They only release useful to their paying customers. In fact, all of the samples from the trunk are useless. I learn more from this site then anywhere else. Great screencast! Thanks

Maruis Marais commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Mon, 09 Apr 2007 10:56:16 GMT

Great screencast!! I've found both of the presentation great fun to watch. I must say that this one is much improved from the first cast. Question: Are MR going to support generators like RoR?

Ayende Rahien commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Mon, 09 Apr 2007 03:52:33 GMT

About the question, what do you mean, examples with SQL Scripts? Usually we generate them from the Active record entities.

Marcos commented on Hibernating Rhinos - Episode #2 - Select * From MonoRail.Customers

Mon, 09 Apr 2007 03:04:58 GMT

Wow, great screencast. I wonder why Castle (I mean stronghold ;)) don't make more screencasts about MR specifically . I know there are lack of samples and examples, and I think this (IMO) proves and excellent way to show the power, flexibility and simplicity (when you get it) of MR. On the other side, i think you should speak a little slower, and the audio quality is much better than episode 1 but maybe you can improve that a little more. Overall Great job. I really appreciate this stuff. PD: Question: Why the samples on the trunk doesn' have the sql scripts? like the petstore sample...