http://ayende.comAyende @ RahienCopyright (C) Ayende Rahien 2004 - 2021 (c) 202660@Carsten: My grandad once rescued, hided and feeded a teenaged Wehrmacht soldier for months. At some point the guy was something like 500 miles behind enemy lines. Was my grandad wrong? Same happened to my grand uncle in Russia, he survived the war, and its afterwards, thanks to Russian peasants. Were they wrong? The rules are there to be understood, and if the case, questioned and flaunted.http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment26http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment26Tue, 05 Feb 2013 14:07:11 GMT"The rules are not there to be understood they are there to be followed." It is really terrifying to me that anyone can actually believe this.http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment25http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment25Fri, 01 Feb 2013 06:33:15 GMT>The rules are not there to be understood they are there to be followed. That is wrong on so many levels.http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment24http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment24Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:11:41 GMTInvoicing to an international customer, I have this limitation as well. All Belgian invoices must be made in the language of residence (French or Dutch depending on where you live). I'm required by law to send a Dutch invoice, but since my client doesn't understand it, I just send a translated invoice as well. It's silly, but it's the law.http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment23http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment23Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:02:03 GMTOn the devorce in Germen: Trust me, no normal translation would end up like this. Translations happen in different ways, this was my last translation done in India, checked in India. We moved to Done in either source or target language country, checked by native speaker for this project. A little more expensive (a lot), but it saved us so many headaches.http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment22http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment22Tue, 29 Jan 2013 01:07:33 GMTGood question but beyond the rules. The rules are not there to be understood they are there to be followed.http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment21http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment21Fri, 25 Jan 2013 20:27:19 GMTCarsten, How do you expect a non German company to accept a PO, then?http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment20http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment20Fri, 25 Jan 2013 19:11:36 GMTI am German and I fully understand the guy: Usually, you have an enormous set of terms and conditions as part of a PO. Accepting the PO means to accept the terms and conditions as well. These are made by lawyers and as a simple procurement guy you are not allowed to deliver any translation. Please stop joking about us. http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment19http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment19Fri, 25 Jan 2013 17:42:23 GMT@Allesandro that's not correct...we use a lot of products (ReSharper, DevExpress, Pardigm etc.) from companies outside Germany and all we need for fiscal issues are valid invoices, no matter what language they are. But maybe bigger companies have their own laws for handling things like this.http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment18http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment18Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:32:42 GMTA PO is a form of contract, albeit normally fairly short lived unless it contains a description of paying for the goods or services in installments. Regardless, if German law prevents them from issuing something as simple as a PO in English, what kind of crazy restrictions would apply to more involved contracts?http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment17http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment17Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:59:39 GMTConfigurator & Alessandro, This isn't a contract. This is me going into a store in Berlin and asking in Hebrew what is the price of 1.56 kg of coffee. http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment16http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment16Thu, 24 Jan 2013 04:48:23 GMTBryan, It isn't a contract, is is (probably) a PO. They want to buy something from us, I would assume. I just don't know for sure, or what, or how much. Or what terms they need.http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment15http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment15Thu, 24 Jan 2013 04:46:37 GMT@Alessandro: everyone that hears me speak English assumes I'm French, because of the accent. Everyone that hears me speak French assumes I'm English because of the accent... @Ayende: Imagine only speaking very basic English, and not knowing anyone who speaks it any better than you. Would you write a binding legal document in English? Would you stake your employer's money and reputation on that? I wouldn't.http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment14http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment14Thu, 24 Jan 2013 00:37:59 GMT@Fishy: I am not an expert on German law, but I sort of remember hearing or reading somewhere that German businesses must keep their accounts in German language, and if they aren't, upon request from the fiscal authorities they must provide a translation in German at their own expense. This business may have taken that provision one step further, or so their tall poppies may have thought, shifting the burden of the eventual translation to their supplier, of trying thereof. Or perhaps is some new piece of legislation I haven't yet heard about :) @Ayende: would you be so kind as to ask this gentleman to point out which exact German law is forcing them not to provide a purchase order in a foreign language? @Ayende II: don't get me wrong, but first time I heard you speak, I thought you were German, a German with a funny accent, but German nonetheless.http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment13http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment13Thu, 24 Jan 2013 00:05:04 GMTHere's what I get from that exchange. A non-German company had better be ready to hire their own lawyer who is fluent in reading and speaking German to review the German language contract before doing business with a German company. Also, German companies wishing to do business with non-German companies should expect to pay a higher price to defray the costs of such a lawyer.http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment12http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment12Wed, 23 Jan 2013 20:30:02 GMTThis seems a bit obvious, but assuming all of this was provided in electronic form couldn't you have used Google Translate?http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment11http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment11Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:53:09 GMTlol...that sounds like a typical german regulation :-) But seriously...i'm from Germany and I never heard about something stupid like that before. http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment10http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment10Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:31:31 GMTJames, AWESOME!http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment9http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment9Wed, 23 Jan 2013 18:08:28 GMT@Chris - The company cannot offer a legally-binding document written in any language besides German, but he, personally, can offer you (non-legally binding) advise on what the German document says.http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment8http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment8Wed, 23 Jan 2013 15:44:35 GMTSo, did you include an End-User License Agreement written in Hebrew?http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment7http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment7Wed, 23 Jan 2013 15:25:50 GMTI'm really confused here. So he can't translate the full text, but he can translate parts of it? I'd put my money on something being lost in translation or a misunderstanding of laws/rules/regulations. @Jesse Houwing, I'd be interested to know what the original English text was and the intended and erroneous German text, if you are able to recall/share. I am trying to learn German, so potential pitfalls and subtleties are quite helpful.http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment6http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment6Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:34:15 GMTJesse, Doesn't matter. I can't process any German order, I don't understand what they _mean_. http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment5http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment5Wed, 23 Jan 2013 12:22:57 GMTThere is so much that can get lost in translation... The old and new order must probably be reviewed and stamped by a licensed translator and reviewed by a legal department somewhere... I was once on a project with a translation mishap, German customers were required to separate from their husband or wife in order to be allowed to receive an upgrade discount. That wasn't what the English said.http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment4http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment4Wed, 23 Jan 2013 12:21:47 GMTI don't get it. What was the matter of that conversation? Did he ordered something from your place? I also don't get that part with the translation. I'm also located in Germany and that is the first time I heard something like that. That sounds very wrong what he's saying.http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment3http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment3Wed, 23 Jan 2013 11:21:57 GMTactually it is quite easy to create a translated order form in a SAP ERP environment if the IT department can be bothered with it. Our suppliers in Taiwan also don't understand german...http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment2http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment2Wed, 23 Jan 2013 10:50:46 GMTYeah . There, RIGHT THERE, where it says "SAP" - there's your problem ;-) http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment1http://ayende.com/160801/you-are-not-allowed-to-understand-us-it-is-the-law#comment1Wed, 23 Jan 2013 10:09:13 GMT