Ayende @ Rahien

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Developing on dotOren

I mentioned that we are on the closing of a project, and we have already started to work on side projects and preparing for the next one.

In the current project, I have setup a lot of the inrasturcture myself, and then the team started to work on it. I had a discussion with a co worker today about it, she had a lot of frustration because she couldn't work on the side project the way she was used to in this project.

We setup most of everything that she needed, but one thing that she said stuck with me:

I don't know how to develop on .NET, I know how to develop on .OREN

I found it funny, but we still scheduled training sessions...

Comments

goodwill
08/30/2007 12:18 PM by
goodwill

That is too great. Unfortunately I never found a framework clean enough yet. MonoRail is not bad, but I still end up doing quite a bit debugging when using brail, the error message just really confusing sometimes...... Ayende you hear me? :P

For example, I come across object null reference when I forgot {} on the dictionary parameter...

I am recently studying ANTLR, hope someday I am going to create something called RubiView - I like RHTML a lot, the error messages are very clean and so as the syntax. Brail still have quite a bit to go... I guess Boo's compiler is not clean enough.

goodwill
08/30/2007 12:18 PM by
goodwill

That is too great. Unfortunately I never found a framework clean enough yet. MonoRail is not bad, but I still end up doing quite a bit debugging when using brail, the error message just really confusing sometimes...... Ayende you hear me? :P

For example, I come across object null reference when I forgot {} on the dictionary parameter...

I am recently studying ANTLR, hope someday I am going to create something called RubiView - I like RHTML a lot, the error messages are very clean and so as the syntax. Brail still have quite a bit to go... I guess Boo's compiler is not clean enough.

Nate Kohari
08/30/2007 02:00 PM by
Nate Kohari

That's funny... in my last job, I got a similar response. One day my boss slipped up and said ".NATE" rather than ".NET", resulting in the graphic artist creating this logo:

http://kohari.org/dot-nate.jpg

I printed it out and hung it on my wall, and we commonly referred to my lunatic ideas as .NATE from that day on. :)

Arne Claassen
08/30/2007 02:28 PM by
Arne Claassen

Isn't that exactly the argument why so many are using ASP.NET and looking for ASP.NET experienced developers?

From the employer side it's the choice of "what's the best solution for the problem" or "what will do the job and I can get staffed?"

And from the developer side, aside from us people who just want to code for the pure joy of it, I know plenty of people who wouldn't branch out to Monorail or another framework, because they don't want to invest in a skill that isn't sellable. Better to understand the inherent magic of the Page cycle to impress in the interview for an ASP.NET job than to not have to deal with a Page cycle but having nowhere to use that skill.

I guess it's all a matter of momentum for a framework, but especially with the current love for DSLs, it seems that there is a trend to developing knowledge that may not transfer to next project or gig. For me that's all part of why programming is fun, but I can't say that's the case for many of the devs I work or have worked with.

On the flip side, I've interviewed at least a couple of people who have had "years of experience writing ASP.NET" but have never created a class outside an aspx form. They just do linear programming inside what VS spits out for them. Kinda scary.

Ayende Rahien
08/30/2007 05:56 PM by
Ayende Rahien

I have seen it taken so far to the point where people refused to write their own classes, certainly.

The problem that you raise isn't much of an issue, actually. It is very easy to find work if you have MonoRail / NHibernate experience, and the self selecting nature of the group means that you will tend to work with higher quality people.

I don't have any issue with building things for a specific project only, in fact, only when I need something for the second project would I do something to factor it out.

The added value here is that you get what you want expressed clearly, easily and in a maintainable manner.

This means that you can do much more.

Comlin
08/31/2007 09:30 AM by
Comlin

@Ayende

I do not have any info about Israel but in Moscow(Russia) you will hardly find many positions that require Monorail, thanks god situation is a little better with NHibernate. If you came to Moscow to carry out some training sessions that would be really great! :)

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